Members LiveMusic Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 I made a post on this subject in years past but I can't find it. Can't even recall which website it was on. Wanna know how NOT to do live sound? Listen to the sound of an opening act where the main act has a big board and sound man. Whatever they do for the poor opener, DON'T do that. What is it? WHY is it so muddy and then when the main act comes on, it's like "WOW, man, now THESE guys can play!" It's not the playing, dummy, it's the sound guy doing it like it SHOULD be. So, what do they do to sabotage the opening act? (I recently heard Pat Green, country act, in concert. It was SO evident again.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 So, what do they do to sabotage the opening act? They don't. They give the opening act fewer channels, IF ANY, on the main mixer. Often they use a smaller side mixer. The opening act gets far less sound check time, again if any. A lot of time the opening act has a less experienced FOH soundguy, again IF ANY. Oft times, the opening act gets the house soundguy who is inexperienced with that band, whatever his sound experience may be. Too often, opening act designated soundguys get the job from being FOTB (friends of the band) and not from any real skill or experience. Or they only have experience with club systems IN CLUBs and are clueless in the big venues. It's a totally different skill set. Sometimes there is a SPL limit placed on the opening under what the main act's allowable SPL is, so the main act can have more impact. But NO TRUE PROFESSIONAL soundman sabotages the sound in any production he is involved with (unless you are being paid directly by Sharon Osbourne ;>). Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 I heard LIVING COLOUR open for the STONES in the early 90's and Reid's guitar was just a wall of mud and sludge. He is well known for having severe rack disease dreadful tone. STONES came on with their lower gain "guitar" tones and everything was just crystal clear. Even the best sound person can't do anything about a dreadful sound source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pro1-54 Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 On the other side of the coin, I remember a gig I did when I was playing in a local band that was opening for a national act. We showed up for soundcheck and were told there were not enough lines to use the same FOH console so they were scrambling to find one since the production company came from 4 hours away. Well, they lucked out because we had brought our production truck to the gig and had a Yamaha Promix that we used for small club shows. We took it out of the case and layed a blanket on top of the 40 channel console the headliner was using and sat it on top. Didn't even get time for a soundcheck but wasn't too worried since the board had our settings stored (other than our PA at the time was a Peavey HDH rig and the production company brought a Meyer MSL-3 rig). Our engineer told us after the show the production company was very impressed with our show and his mix considering there was no soundcheck. When the headliner came on, their FOH engineer had a mix more akin to white noise - it was so loud we left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dmunsie Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 Be careful, I know for a fact the headliner can give the sound guy a nice tip to make them sound good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 So, what do they do to sabotage the opening act? That's a pretty bold statement. It's also in general pretty inaccurate in that I have worked thousands of shows and can't think of even one instance where the headliner has sabotaged the opener's sound. In fact, I can think of some shows where the opening act(s) have sounded better, or certainly at a more reasonable volume and more audience-friendly mix. I can also think of some shows where the opening actr's sound guy was in totally over their head but wouldn't-couldn't admit it and he drove the train wreck right over the cliff. What's worse is that they sometimes just doen't even realize how bad they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 I can't imagine a sound tech/company lasting too long in the biz if they give the main act a half-assed effort unless they get a nice tip beforehand. Sounds pretty lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LiveMusic Posted February 25, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 That's a pretty bold statement. It's also in general pretty inaccurate in that I have worked thousands of shows and can't think of even one instance where the headliner has sabotaged the opener's sound. You're taking that phrase too literally. There's a bit of sarcasm there. I am simply asking if there is anything done or not done for the opening act ON PURPOSE so that the headliner sounds better than the opening act. You guys are generally saying that doesn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 25, 2007 Members Share Posted February 25, 2007 I'm pretty sure the volume limiting thing is pretty common. Otherwise, I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 26, 2007 Members Share Posted February 26, 2007 I'm pretty sure the volume limiting thing is pretty common. Otherwise, I don't think so. Yes, but this is not what I would call sabatoging. Keeping the volume down would be a good thing in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 26, 2007 Members Share Posted February 26, 2007 Yes, but this is not what I would call sabatoging. Keeping the volume down would be a good thing in most cases.No, certainly not sabotaging. Regardless of what anyone thinks is the right volume for the event, I think it only makes sense to work backwards a little bit. Get the idea that the main act is going to be at such a volume and then have it a bit lower than that for the opening act or opening of the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted February 26, 2007 Members Share Posted February 26, 2007 Yes, but this is not what I would call sabatoging. Keeping the volume down would be a good thing in most cases. yea, I think there is a fine line there. When I am doing both an opener and a headliner, I will often "chop back" the opener a bit. I do this in 2 places:1) lower the overall volume2) rasise the low cut on the subs I do this so that I have somewhere to go during teh night. I will even do with in a set, to give teh set direction, and over teh cource of the whole night , even if I have the same band all night. To me I just like to have a direction to go , something more to add when I want to, at the right time. I would not however say that I make a band sound "bad" for this prupose. I think that would be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members session_of_jam Posted February 26, 2007 Members Share Posted February 26, 2007 I've been the opener with less than exciting sound. But I blame it on being unfamiliar with the guy running sound, the particular PA set up, and even the procedures involved in bigger shows. I almost felt pushy asking for more refinements, but in hind sight, we probably could have dialed things in a bit more if we hadn't been afraid to ask more questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 26, 2007 Members Share Posted February 26, 2007 Asking questions is a good thing, most pros I know will go out of their way to help out an opener that really wants to sound good and is not sure of how to proceed. It's part of being professional. Not I can't say the same thing for an opener who knows it all and starts getting pushy and demanding when they clearly are clueless. It's one thingto help somebody who wants to learn, but entirelyy another thing to help a bunch of know-it-all amatuers who are rude, pushy and snotty. They are usually allowed to stew in their own stage juices in front of a sometimes merciless crowd. We will just sit back and smile, they aren't going to listen to us anyway, oh help us help them, so why expend any more effeot than necessary? There is something to be learned from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dmunsie Posted February 27, 2007 Members Share Posted February 27, 2007 "but entirelyy another thing to help a bunch of know-it-all amatuers who are rude, pushy and snotty..." More reverb dude, more reverb!! lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 27, 2007 Members Share Posted February 27, 2007 The "can you add grind and drive type death metal distortion to the vocals, dude" usually sets the mood for the rest of the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted February 27, 2007 Members Share Posted February 27, 2007 I too have been on the other side of the coin in that the opener I have mixed for sounded better than the headliner. I already knew that I was going to be turned down; I saw them do it. The opener, us, were using the house mixer. I talked real nice to the house engineer the whole time I was there so he showed me around the mixer and outboard gear. He also said I could do anything I wanted to the mixer and house eq, as the headliner had their own mixer and outboard. I got the band up in a couple of minutes. I was adjusting stuff faster than I ever have. Must have been adrenaline. I had that "audience friendly" mix agedhorse mentioned. It sounded great out of the house system the whole time we played. Then, when the headliner came on, with their own mixer (I can't remember what it was) they sounded loud, harsh, and really out of balance. I have never felt so satisfied that I could sound better than one of the so-called "big boys". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 27, 2007 Members Share Posted February 27, 2007 Go for the good, solid, basic mix FIRST, then add just enough sweet stuff to fill it out and no more. This alone will get you sounding better than many bands I hear these days. There are some really good engineers that tour through our place and the ones who get the really good sound are the ones who tend to follow the guidlines I described. It's really not a big secret or that difficuly. Oh, also remember that faders also mobve in the DOWN direction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted February 27, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2007 So, what do they do to sabotage the opening act? I've done it a few times. Someone has to be a real persistent dick to me for me to go there, though. I wrote about one of them. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 27, 2007 Members Share Posted February 27, 2007 It's not the playing, dummy, it's the sound guy doing it like it SHOULD be. I'd say typically it's about a 50/50 thing. I'd say rarely it's just the soundperson's fault. Oftentimes, it's the same person mixing both opening and headliner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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