Inexpensive mic suggestions for recording a live stage...?

[session_of_jam]

My band wants to record our shows to use as demos and learning tools. I have a marantz 660 recorder, which seems to do a nice job. Right now the plan is to get a feed from the board, and supplement that with a pair of mics placed on either side of the stage to give it that "enhanced" live sound.

 

Now I grew up doing the jam band thing, and I know the difference between soundboard recordings, and audience recordings. There are tonal pros and cons to each. I am convinced that the optimal solution is a blending of the two methods. Using a small mixer infront of the 660, I plan to mix the two sources to taste, and see what happens. What I need now is a good pair of mics. I can't spend $1000 apiece, or even $300. I know that this forum often is home to pros employed by deep pocketed organizations, who choose to recommend the optimal gear or nothing at all, but thats not an option.

 

Surely someone has tried some of the inexpensive condensors and were at least not horrified by the results? I'm thinking probably large diaphram right?

[witesol]

perhaps a pair of Samson C02s would'nt scare you with either price or results. $219 per pair. The Sterling 33s at Guitar Center(Formerly Groove Tubes GT33s) are a step up. They're a nice FET condensor mic @$199ea.

[session_of_jam]

Do you think the CO2s would add any bass response beyond what comes from the board? Thats why I was thinking large diaphram.

[Craig Vecchione]

I would rely more on the board feed for bass response...it'll be cleaner and with much better response than you could hope to get with distant mics.

 

I would also recommend using one track for the board, the other for a mic feed, and mix down afterwards. This will give you a little more ability to edit out any 'unfortunate' occurances on either track, which should outweigh any small advantage of a stereo mix.

[session_of_jam]

 

I would rely more on the board feed for bass response...it'll be cleaner and with much better response than you could hope to get with distant mics. I would also recommend using one track for the board, the other for a mic feed, and mix down afterwards. This will give you a little more ability to edit out any 'unfortunate' occurances on either track, which should outweigh any small advantage of a stereo mix.

 

 

Very good advice. Makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

[witesol]

 

Do you think the CO2s would add any bass response beyond what comes from the board? Thats why I was thinking large diaphram.

 

Diaphragm size has little to do with bass response. Often SD mics have less off-axis sensitivity so they can be aimed at what you want...and don't.

 

yea, good idea, a combo of board mix and mic gives you more possibilities. Just remember the loudest things on stage will be least represented in the board mix and vice versa for the mics. If the bass is not going through the PA much, it'll be weak in the board mix, if you're taking a feed off the main outs for instance. Conversely, if you have an acoustic electric guitar through a DI it'll be screaming on your board mix. Just things to think about.

[coyote-1]

If the board has an available AUX channel you could use that for your off-the-board feed. What's coming through the mains, unless it's a LARGE venue, will not neccessarily give you a good recorded track. It might have a ton of bassdrum and no cymbals, for instance, if the soundguy thinks the cymbals are loud enough in the room that they don't need significant reinforcement. Using an aux chanel would allow you to create a specific recording mix that's different from the mains.

 

If the board has a matrix, you can use it for the same purpose.

[GZsound]

 

I would rely more on the board feed for bass response...it'll be cleaner and with much better response than you could hope to get with distant mics. I would also recommend using one track for the board, the other for a mic feed, and mix down afterwards. This will give you a little more ability to edit out any 'unfortunate' occurances on either track, which should outweigh any small advantage of a stereo mix.

 

 

I agree with this approach. It's what we use all the time to record our gigs. I use a single LD mic placed on stage that points back towards the drummer and picks up the bass, the guitar cab, and the monitors. I blend this signal with the track recorded off the board and get a good representation of how we sound.

 

For an inexpensive LD mic that works really well, get a CAD GXL 2400 or even a GXL 2200. They cost under a hundred dollars and work great. For even better sound, spend two hundred dollars and get a CAD M179 and put it in omni mode. It picks up everything on stage with great clarity.

[session_of_jam]

Thanks for all the helpful input guys.

 

If you got any more, keep um' coming. I promise to listen politely, even if I disagree!...

[abzurd]

Here's an option from Audiopile. If he says it's "quite good for the money" you can take it to the bank.

 

 

Technical Description:

 

This is a "quite good for the money" condenser microphone that can be effectively used as either an overhead cymbal drum mic, overhead choir mic, or acoustical wind or string instrument mic.

This mic is designed to accept a standard balanced XLR mic cord which plugs into the back, as shown in the picture below.

 

This mic comes with a mic clip and wind screen.

 

The mic comes packaged in a padded wooden box as shown below. No mic cord is included.

 

This is your basic workhorse of a condenser mic, it's built tough, it sounds and works good, and has some nice features.

 

Operates on standard 48V Phantom power (required)

[Dogoth]

My choice would be Octava 012 Small dia condensers (a lot of hollywood guys use them for location work). They can be had for about $150 each with the onmi capsule and a pad. I have a few of these mics and love them. Beware that there are some chineese counterfits out there (info can be found online for identifying them).

[session_of_jam]

I've seen those audiopile mics on his site before. He (and I talk like I know who "he" is, but I don't) but anyway he seems like a straight shooter. They look very similar to another commercially available mic. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

I know that this forum often is home to pros employed by deep pocketed organizations, who choose to recommend the optimal gear or nothing at all,

 

Really?

 

You might be thinking of the wrong forum.

 

I'd say there are some forum members here who have enough experience to recommend cost effective products.

 

I'd say there is a general disdain against impluse purchasing of cheap consumer toys among the folks on this forum with enough experience to know better.

[flanc]

Really? You might be thinking of the wrong forum. I'd say there are some forum members here who have enough experience to recommend cost effective products. I'd say there is a general disdain against impluse purchasing of cheap consumer toys among the folks on this forum with enough experience to know better.

 

 

Agreed. We have some folks employed by/affiliated with manufacturers (EWI, Bose, Genz Benz, Peavey, Allen and Heath, et al) and most are VERY good about maintaining some level of impartiality; few act like salesmen and that's a good thing. The "other" pro sound forum is home to lot's of big sound company guys who buy Top Knotch gear by the pallet. I find no snobbery here and a good bargain is celebrated by all!

[guitarharv52]

I side with Mark here.Seems like most threads are how to get the most for the least.I can't afford high dollar equipment but here I learn how to use it effectively and get the most out of what I have.Too bad I'm not as interested in shaving down my bar tab.

[Not Serial]

when i record bands live i use a split snake with ground lifts, and at least 4 mics foh has no access to or need of.

 

the stage mics are all split and tracked into protools or DP.

 

additional mics depending on the situation may be 2 sm81's as audience mics, positioned either in the crowd or on stage pointing into the crowd. ***this is a topic of great discussion if your interested***

 

also i usually will add a pair of overheads if possible, 2 4041's work great and often negate the use of tome mics (but i like the toms mics if i have enough channels). a lot of mid/small size venues do not use overheads for foh as often they are not neccessary (sometimes they are).

 

i am careful where i plug the rig into, best place is a separate circuit on the distro, but i can share foh power a lot of times. never plug in the wall.

 

also careful of phantom, usually not an issue. with a hard split one mixer should drive phantom, the other should have phantom off.

 

when i do this it is possible to achieve what i call "saturday night live" quality. much better than a typical board mix, definately better than most room mic mixes although on occasion i am suprised at what some folks get with those methods.

 

the problem i deal with mostly is people tend to equate direct sound with proffesional sound, and i tend to disagree. sure i like direct sound, but am i listening to the singer one inch from their lips? i think not - its simply not what i am hearing in any room, ever. what works best for me is a combination of direct/diffuse sound and a punchy/ambient mix that can be created when capturing independant unaltered (by foh processing/eq) signals and room/audience sounds.

 

depending on the band/budjet/expectations/reality a 3hour show can be mixed in anywhere from 3 to 48 hours but i try to keep it under 6 hours most of the time. sometimes this can take 38GB of raw audio depending on track count/duration.

 

there are more comlex ways to do this and more simple ways. this way is effective for me right now in the locale i am in.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

My choice would be Octava 012 Small dia condensers (a lot of hollywood guys use them for location work). They can be had for about $150 each with the onmi capsule and a pad. I have a few of these mics and love them. Beware that there are some chineese counterfits out there (info can be found online for identifying them).

 

Octava is a good recommendation.

 

I believe another is SE Microphones:

 

http://www.sonic-distribution.com/2/US/SE/opening.htm

 

The SE1A could be an excellent choice for the OP's application.

[witesol]

..or if ebay isn't out of the question a pair of AT Pro37r mics would work great, about $150 for both I suspect. Or a Pair of ATM33r. Shure PG81s will work fine too.