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Kick sounds great in my monitors but horrible out front


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I'm using an Audix D6 kick mic with a pretty big kick, 22"x20". I've tried moving the mic around, but it seems like the best sound comes from about 8" back from the beater head, pointed straight at the beaters. The kick is tuned and muffled a bit.

 

When I'm using my monitors it sounds GREAT -- but my monitors are significantly better than the mains setup. I'm using a 2x10 highs cabinet and a Meyer 2x15 sub biamped and crossed over at about 140 Hz. The mains are running a pair of JBL JRX 1x15 tops biamped over Peavey SP118x subs. Running the Meyer for mains isn't really an option because (a) we can't stack the tops on it, the Peaveys have pole mounts... and (b) I don't play all the shows, so they need a solution when I'm not there too. And © I'm not selling it to them!

 

I'd rather figure out what the problem is with the current system than go swapping things around for certain shows and using the Peaveys for others, etc. The rest of the signal chain consists of a PV20 mixer, a crossover (dbx I believe?), and a Peavey boat-anchor poweramp pushing like 1400 or 2000 watts max. We don't have an EQ running for mains but can commandeer one if warranted.

 

Right now the kick just kinda sounds like a weak "bump". There's no definition to it at all, there's no chest-thumping power to it or anything. If we turn it up nice and loud it just becomes a louder "bump" with no definition. I'm using a plastic kick pad and it's got plenty of click to it, but none of that is coming through to the FOH... it's like you're just hearing the sub-bass from it and that's it, and that isn't enough of a kick sound to really do anything. On the other hand, through the Meyer it could sterilize people in the front row and destroy babies. Our solution up to this point has been to crank it up in my monitors so that it's audible in the house too, but I'm really trying to go in-ears and hauling that beast out is a nightmare.

 

Should we get an EQ for the mains? If so, what would you recommend boosting/cutting? We want the kick to cut through the mix, it doesn't have to be ridiculous because it's rock and country covers, but it needs some form of presence out there. Any other ideas? Compressor on the kick channel to give us a little more room to play with?

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Nope. There's step 1 before the show tonight. I don't think they're out of phase, as it's not like there's a lack of bass coming out of them... it's more like the bass that is coming out of them is undefined and just kinda sounds like "suck".

 

Imagine you're standing outside a loud concert venue listening to a kick drum (and imagine the bass guitar isn't playing!). There's a lot of bass, but none of it is kicking you in the chest, it's not defined, it almost sounds like a low rumble. You can tell it's there, it's just not musically appealing.

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Nope. There's step 1 before the show tonight. I don't think they're out of phase, as it's not like there's a lack of bass coming out of them... it's more like the bass that is coming out of them is undefined and just kinda sounds like "suck".


Imagine you're standing outside a loud concert venue listening to a kick drum (and imagine the bass guitar isn't playing!). There's a lot of bass, but none of it is kicking you in the chest, it's not defined, it almost sounds like a low rumble. You can tell it's there, it's just not musically appealing.

 

How do the mains sound overall? Are the vocals and the rest of the instruments coming through fairly smoothly and defined? Does recorded music sound "right" through the mains? Are you running any EQ at all on the kick, other than the channel strip?

Usually, the chest thump is in the 120-160 hz range, so maybe you need to boost in there a bit. And the higher frequencies add definition. in the 3-5K range. The upper part of that is where some of the bands get the over-clicky kick tone.

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Does recorded music come through clear and punchy? What's the crossover point of the mains subs? If it's something like 80hz, then there's your answer right there. I like to have my subs crossed at around 125hz. If the crossover freq is nice then try turning them down and turning up the tops.

 

Did you say one amp is pushing the tops and mains? ... How does that work?

 

I know for my PA, when I don't get the time to tune it, it can sound really really dark, with lots of low end... essentially the kick just sounds like "moom", vocals and instruments have no clarity or cut. I hop on my 31-band and usually I'll give sloping cut in the low end (4db at 20hz, with a nice gradual upward slope to 100hz where it's at 0db), then a touch of cut at 1k (sometimes I'll boost 1k, depends on the room), and then a bit of a bump at 4 to 6k or so. This will generally bring everything out and make everything a bit clearer. Don't give too much boost at 4k because that's a really harsh band if you go crazy with it, just enough to bring everything out.

 

I've never used the SP118x subs, but I've used the newer SP218 subs and had a blast

 

"hey evan hit the kick drum and keep hitting it... need to bring it up"

*I push the faders up until drum is audible*

some random guy: "hey man, how loud can this setup go?"

*I grab faders and push them up until the DDT lights start to flash*

kick drum: *wham whAM WHAM WHAM!!!*

some random guy: "AUGH {censored}"

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A decent tuned kick, a D6, and peavey SP118 subs? That SHOULD sound decent. The JRX's are a weak point but I'd first look at the mixer strip EQ settings. Often people equate the kick to just boosting the low EQ and cutting the rest, a recipe for undefined mush.

 

Boomerweps

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So your trying to make those JRX cabs sound like a Meyer box........:D :D :D :D :D

 

 

 

 

Sorry, couldnt resist. Is the monitors pre-EQ and mains post-EQ? If so then ckeck the channel strip EQ and or the FOH processing. Zero them out and start over.

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Based on what I've heard from your band's rig, I'd say EQ first and then get more amp.

 

You guys desperately need an EQ, those JRXs are painful at times.

 

If the subs don't have enough juice with an EQ, then look into another amp. PV2600s can be found for less than $500.

 

If you aren't doing anything on the 25th of next month, come out to the Chesapeake Square AJ's, I'll be running my subs with a PV2600.

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May 25th we're at the Suffolk AJs.

 

Gonna toss my 31 EQ into the mains. I'm kinda afraid to give our soundguy that power because I know as soon as we start he's just gonna boost the {censored} out of things.

 

What we "desperately need" is someone who knows what they're doing to look at the system and get it set up. One of the guys who used to post here (Square) came out to a gig to show him a bunch of stuff that was being done wrong, but actually having somebody come out and run it for the show would be great... especially since we play a lot of the same places. He's getting better, but he still doesn't have a real starting point.

 

TimmyP: We need that much drum monitor because it's the only thing getting a good drum sound out front. ;) Believe me, I'm more than happy to stop dragging a 150+ pound sub to shows and sit there with some in-ears.

 

Mogwix: The tops and subs are both 8 ohm. 4 ohm per side in stereo. Monitors are running off a separate amp.

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So... if they run in paralell, arnt they getting the same signal? Or am I just way off on that maybe being the problem? Dont you need some way to send just the lower frequencies to the subs?

 

Or are you running sub1+sub2 off one channel and top1+top2 off the other channel? (i got the former from your "4 ohm per side in stereo" comment)

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While i'm generally a big fan of Peavey products for the money involved, their low frequency speaker designs are quite lacking in my experience.

 

The first thing that i would do is to experiment with where you're crossing the subs in at. You mention the crossover frequency for your monitor sub, but not what's used on the mains. The higher that you cross them, the worse that they will sound. The lower that you cross the mains, the worse that they will sound. Obviously, trial and error will net you what works optimally with this specific combo, regardless of what theory says "should" work best. Different venues and different mounting locations can cause this to vary on a show by show basis too.

 

Secondly, i would replace the existing internal wiring with some 12 gauge twisted pair wiring. Solid core wire ALWAYS works and sounds best, but may introduce some problems if the gear is treated roughly and / or moved about quite frequently. Stranded wire is typically a reasonable compromise so long as you use an equal to or heavier than gauge.

 

Thirdly, i would try adding some polyester fiberfil to the cabinet. The more that you add, the more it will "clean up" the "round" and "indistinct" upper bass "rumble" that these cabs produce. You WILL find a point that gives you the punch and extension that YOU are looking for, so some experimentation is in order here. If you do this AFTER getting your crossover frequency dialed in as mentioned above, you may have to do some further fine tuning.

 

Fourthly, these cabinets typically aren't tuned for {censored}, so if you're good at doing math and understand Thiel-Smalle parameters, play with the venting. Most Peavey cabs are tuned for maximum "apparent" bass i.e. about 80 Hz or so. A well tuned kick drum is lower than this, resulting in increased distortion and the lack of attack and definition that you seek. Tuning the driver / cabinet to about 40 Hz will drastically improve bass extension and overall bass weight while lowering distortion. Power handling and control may actually be IMPROVED by doing this, as the driver won't be "unloaded" quite as often. Once again though, altering speaker performance may have you experimenting with crossover frequency again.

 

Doing all of these is relatively simple and quite cheap. The end result should get you what you are looking for without having to spend a lot of money. Getting your hands dirty and learning how to do this stuff yourself is a HELLUVA lot more fun than opening your wallet and relying on others to fix your problems too :) Sean

 

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Hey Zeromus,

 

What you need is a good "lab" day. I don't mind hosting again, if you are up for it. You need to set your rig up in a non gig environment where you have plenty of time to dial it in and expirament. I will be happy to guide you through the process, and we can setup a meeting like we did last time.

 

As far as your kick sound issue, I have to agree with Boomerweps. You should use the crossover to set general system balance and gain structure. Your house EQ can correct for general speaker issues and of course for the room you are playing in that night. If you have an issue with a specific input (in this case the kick) then I would look at the channel EQ and optional channel based processing (gates, comps, inserted EQ's etc).

 

My partner said you had some issues with the mixing board you had when I last saw you. What board are you running now?

 

Please PM me if you are interested in setting up a lab day.

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As an experiment, try turning off the monitor sub and see if that improves the bass sound coming from the Peaveys. Maybe your monitor is cancelling the mains out front.

That's a great thought, especially if he is really running that hot onstage. Man, I'm glad I don't have to play on that stage. Sounds impossible.:freak:

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adding some polyester fiberfil to the cabinet... The more that you add, the more it will "clean up" the "round" and "indistinct" upper bass "rumble" that these cabs produce. You WILL find a point that gives you the punch and extension that YOU are looking for, so some experimentation is in order here. If you do this AFTER getting your crossover frequency dialed in as mentioned above, you may have to do some further fine tuning.

 

 

Again, a pretty absolute comment without knowing how the fill would affect the tuning of the cabinet's initial tuning. Adding fill may make things less desireable as well. Adding more may not clean up the bass and shift the tuning undesireably.

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..and here comes more thousand-word posts about inconsequential design issues.

 

I'd bet that wire and fiberfill in the cabinet isn't the issue here with the kick drum sound. How about an EQ?? Perhaps lofty expectations?

 

...but what do I know, I'm still using all this horrible prosound gear with terrible 12 &15" speakers..for vocals yet :D

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Did you ever try to mic the kick drum just out side of the Reso head? I place my D6 about 1" just out side of the hole infront of the Resonant head. I get plenty of thump when that burst of air hits it, plus I dont seem to have to fight feedback either. If you want some click from the mallet you can boost a little in the 2000hz range.

 

Just a thought.

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Secondly, i would replace the existing internal wiring with some 12 gauge twisted pair wiring. Solid core wire ALWAYS works and sounds best, but may introduce some problems if the gear is treated roughly and / or moved about quite frequently. Stranded wire is typically a reasonable compromise so long as you use an equal to or heavier than gauge.


>

 

 

What's this gonna do?

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I'm using an Audix D6 kick mic with a pretty big kick, 22"x20". I've tried moving the mic around, but it seems like the best sound comes from about 8" back from the beater head, pointed straight at the beaters. The kick is tuned and muffled a bit.


When I'm using my monitors it sounds GREAT -- but my monitors are significantly better than the mains setup. I'm using a 2x10 highs cabinet and a Meyer 2x15 sub biamped and crossed over at about 140 Hz. The mains are running a pair of JBL JRX 1x15 tops biamped over Peavey SP118x subs. Running the Meyer for mains isn't really an option because (a) we can't stack the tops on it, the Peaveys have pole mounts... and (b) I don't play all the shows, so they need a solution when I'm not there too. And (c) I'm not selling it to them!


I'd rather figure out what the problem is with the current system than go swapping things around for certain shows and using the Peaveys for others, etc. The rest of the signal chain consists of a PV20 mixer, a crossover (dbx I believe?), and a Peavey boat-anchor poweramp pushing like 1400 or 2000 watts max. We don't have an EQ running for mains but can commandeer one if warranted.


Right now the kick just kinda sounds like a weak "bump". There's no definition to it at all, there's no chest-thumping power to it or anything. If we turn it up nice and loud it just becomes a louder "bump" with no definition. I'm using a plastic kick pad and it's got plenty of click to it, but none of that is coming through to the FOH... it's like you're just hearing the sub-bass from it and that's it, and that isn't enough of a kick sound to really do anything. On the other hand, through the Meyer it could sterilize people in the front row and destroy babies. Our solution up to this point has been to crank it up in my monitors so that it's audible in the house too, but I'm really trying to go in-ears and hauling that beast out is a nightmare.


Should we get an EQ for the mains? If so, what would you recommend boosting/cutting? We want the kick to cut through the mix, it doesn't have to be ridiculous because it's rock and country covers, but it needs some form of presence out there. Any other ideas? Compressor on the kick channel to give us a little more room to play with?

 

Okay, now back to our regularly-scheduled program.

 

First, don't expect miracles....your monitors sound better than your mains because they are better. Just as a (hopefully) quick experiment, try switching the monitor rig with one of the FOH stacks and see if the monitors soudn {censored}ty and the FOH sounds better. Yeah it'll look weird...maybe if you're lucky there's time at one of the venues for a quick sound check this way, and swap the gear back before the show.

 

I've heard the Peavey's enough to know that 12ga and polyfill will not improve them. They're a decent sub for the money, but are not a Meyer. You do need to EQ the JRX's and the subs, as Burdi's pointed out (in other threads too, right?;) ), and since he's the one person here besides Square that's actually heard the rig, let's go with that to start.

 

Forget worrying about 40Hz tunings:rolleyes: and concentrate on getting the kick to perform where it matters. 80Hz *is* the 'gut-thump' and around 120Hz is "chest-thump", so try not to have the rig crossed anywhere near there. Experiment up and down 3dB with the EQ in those areas, one at a time, and decide if it's better, worse, or the same. And keep in mind too that the kick has fundamentals and harmonics up to 5KHz, so the whole FOH rig is important.

 

Another possible issue is whether the drumfill is causing a phase issue with FOH, as opposed to the two FOH stacks..I'm not sure if this was the discussion earlier or not. You may need a delay to get them in sync a little better as far as how they're heard in an "average" part of the audience...there's no perfect alignment possible there. But I'd worry about that ver little, and last.....

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As an experiment, try turning off the monitor sub and see if that improves the bass sound coming from the Peaveys. Maybe your monitor is cancelling the mains out front.

 

 

That was my first thought.

 

I used to do a band that used V-Drums, and for a while the drummer was using a Yamaha 2x15 sub and 2 2x15 Club monitors, for himself.

 

When the sub was on, all the low end definition went away from FOH, which was JBL SR 2x15 subs. As soon as he stopped using that thing, all was well again.

 

MG

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Thanks guys. Sorry for the delay.

 

I don't think it has much to do with the phase of the drum fill. Even when I don't bring those (I've also got a Buttkicker + headphones setup available to use at smaller places), we have the problem. The only time the drum monitors are cranked loud enough to have any effect on the sound out front is when the sound out front sucks and they have to be cranked up to compensate!

 

Right now we're crossing over between 140 Hz and 150 Hz. I've got the EQ in our mains rig now and we'll see how it goes Friday. I just have a lot of concern that our soundguy is gonna see 62 sliders and just have a damn field day with them.

 

I'll try moving the mic out further and see if that makes a difference, too. Maybe I've just got it too close. The Meyer sub can knock you on your ass, though. I'm fully aware it's a few steps higher up the ladder than the Peaveys, and maybe I'm just expecting too much.

 

Square, good to see you back here again. If we do another "lab" I'd like to bring out the instruments and the full band, too -- theoretically everything looks great, and when we play stuff through the PA that's prerecorded it sounds fine (and much better once we made the changes you suggested re: the crossover and biamping it!). It's mostly just getting the actual instruments to sound good now. We've got a song or two where the singer plays drums so I can see what it sounds like out front, and it still sounds like a garage band is playing to me, not a "professional" club/bar band.

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..... I just have a lot of concern that our soundguy is gonna see 62 sliders and just have a damn field day with them.



Square, good to see you back here again. If we do another "lab" I'd like to bring out the instruments and the full band, too -- theoretically everything looks great, and when we play stuff through the PA that's prerecorded it sounds fine (and much better once we made the changes you suggested re: the crossover and biamping it!). It's mostly just getting the actual instruments to sound good now. We've got a song or two where the singer plays drums so I can see what it sounds like out front, and it still sounds like a garage band is playing to me, not a "professional" club/bar band.

 

 

We should start with getting your rig optimized and then move on to getting a decent sound for your drums. Time permitting, we can work on the rest of the instrutments.

 

Send me a PM letting me know what your schedule looks like and we can coordinate from there.

 

Oh yeah, please let me know what mixer you are using now.

 

Thanks

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