Disgusted by monitor feedback

[hanemkat]

This forum has been very informative though I STILL haven't fully purchased the modest PA that I asked about almost two months ago. Still studying.

 

Despite doing some searches, I haven't found the exact thread that would precisely address the following problem. Sorry if it's redundant.

 

The problem is ungodly feedback from our monitors in our practice room(s). We use two speakers, one to the left of the drummer aimed at his left ear, and one for the other two of us (guitar and bass). We've arranged the speakers in a variety of positions...on the floor...on a stand, and we've altered our mic positions in most ways we could think of to keep them pointed away from the speakers. The drummer monitor could be a problem, but he's been in many bands with a monitor at his high hat foot, so I've got to figure out a way around it. He sings almost half of the songs.

 

The feedback seems to come in two varieties, one is the high pitched squeal that can occur at any time (meaning whether there is music or not, or whether the mic has a face in front of it or not). The other is a horrible sort of harmony overtone that occurs when singing, making it sound like singing into a ceramic vase or something.

 

I can't really say the volume is that loud because the feedback can creep in even before we add instruments. It seems like with the equipment we're using, many of you would be able to coax enough vocal gain out of the monitors (even if we were just a vocal group) that we'd get uncomfortable and ask to be turned down. As it is, we don't get much gain before feedback.

 

Some details:

MICS - three SM58s for three voices.

 

MIXERS - tried Mackie 1202, Mackie 1642, Peavey 16fx (even with the built in feedback ferret, the squeals continued. In fact the feedback would cause the software to freeze, a situation that could not be replicated by the pros on the Peavey forum. Unfortunately, amateur that I am, I could replicate it whenever I "wanted" to). I always engage the low cut switch and try to start with all EQ flat (after going through each mixer's proper level setting techniques) since it's only three voices going through the board.

 

MONITORS - tried Mackie 450s (with the low cut button engaged) and also JBL EON 15P-1s. I've learned here that either of these could be effective for our monitoring needs.

 

ROOMS - usually a 12 x 12 practice room, the walls of which we recently lined with towels, blankets, rmax, and table cloths. It's quite a ridiculous sight and only helped somewhat. But yesterday we had practice in our living room, not huge (26 x 16) but much bigger than some spaces we'll be playing in. Still problems.

 

So I'm at a loss and am looking for a next step since I was hoping that the monitoring/instrument sound we get here is essentially the one we'd get "out." We'll worry about the mains next. So I've narrowed the problem possibilities to--

 

#1 - ME: the toughest one to quickly fix, but that's why I'm here. I did learn today that maybe I shouldn't wear a baseball hat.

 

#2 - no 31 band EQ, and I'll buy one but I can't believe that we can't get any decently powered vocal without it.

 

#3 - no feedback resistant mics (like maybe Shure's Beta series or the Audix vocal mics); if they'll clean us up, we'll upgrade.

 

#4 - my rooms, but I know we've tried some things to make our spaces less reflective and even bigger. If we can't solve the room here, how can we solve it in a bar?

 

#5 - lively acoustic drums, but other people have Bonham-like drummers too. And plus the feedback occurs without him playing or us trying to overcompensate with extra gain.

 

#6 - powered speakers that aren't dedicated floor monitors. But others use them on the floor, right? So I must be doing something wrong (see #1).

 

Maybe there's a #7, #8, and #9?

 

Thanks for a great forum,

Mark

[dboomer]

I think the first thing you have to consider is there is a definate limit regardless of the gear you are using. Once you cross it there is no coming back. Secondly ... your room is tiny acoustically making that threshold very low. You may squeeze another dB or maybe two if you had perfect equipment and did everything right. The Feedback Ferret will usually increase gain before feedback by about 6dB in a big room ... in your room maybe 2 - 4 dB. There is NOTHING that you can do to get 10 dB period.

 

Once you reach your max the only thing left is to turn down the level in the room so that the ratio of sound in the monitors to the overall level improves ... or ... reduce the number of open microphones. Everytime you double the number of open mics you reduce the potential gain by a factor of 4 times. I used to find it very annoying that bands insist on a mic for every member when only two guys actually sing. Musician's need to learn the limits of equipment and work within those limits to be sucessful.

[GCDEF]

That is a very small room to get any kind of volume in. How loud are you playing? If you're running effects in the monitors you could try turning them down or off.

[ned911]

We rehearse in a 10x15 tin box in which we placed carpet and thick drop clothe on the walls. The biggest difference for us was a PV Feedback Ferret 2. Monitor system was 2 Yorkie NX35's powered by a PV2600 and a Yorkie NX25P. We also used PV SP115M's with similar success.

 

Of course the best system so far has been our new IEM's.

[hanemkat]

 

That is a very small room to get any kind of volume in. How loud are you playing? If you're running effects in the monitors you could try turning them down or off.

 

 

Even the 16 x 26 room is too small then. As I said, the vocal isn't what I'd call loud, but I don't know db's-wise. I'll say this: I could easily belt out a high range loud song (off mic) louder than a miced low range vocal...if that makes sense. No effects. Trying to eliminate as much mess as possible.

[hanemkat]

 

I think the first thing you have to consider is there is a definate limit regardless of the gear you are using. Once you cross it there is no coming back. Secondly ... your room is tiny acoustically making that threshold very low.

 

 

That's why I had hoped moving to a bigger room would help, but maybe the second room wasn't big enough either.

 

 

Once you reach your max the only thing left is to turn down the level in the room so that the ratio of sound in the monitors to the overall level improves

 

 

In which case I guess we could go with no mics at all (and I'm not being facetious...I've considered it). But it's difficult to hear one's voice even over a moderate rock combo without any amplification.

 

 

... or ... reduce the number of open microphones. Everytime you double the number of open mics you reduce the potential gain by a factor of 4 times. I used to find it very annoying that bands insist on a mic for every member when only two guys actually sing.

 

 

Three singers on 75% of the songs and three mics. I know I'd forget to unmute if I attempted to turn off each mic during the rare times it's not in use.

 

 

Musician's need to learn the limits of equipment and work within those limits to be sucessful.

 

 

Indeed we do; that's why we ask. But until we buy the equipment and work with it (and perhaps become frustrated), how do we know its limits or usefulness?

[hanemkat]

 

We rehearse in a 10x15 tin box in which we placed carpet and thick drop clothe on the walls. The biggest difference for us was a PV Feedback Ferret 2. Monitor system was 2 Yorkie NX35's powered by a PV2600 and a Yorkie NX25P. We also used PV SP115M's with similar success.

 

 

That's even a smaller room with even more speakers. So it's possible. I've read only good things about the PV SP112M (the 15's wouldn't be necessary for us). But if it's really a volume issue, the speakers don't matter from what I'm gathering.

 

 

Of course the best system so far has been our new IEM's.

 

 

We're not quite there yet.

[dboomer]

But until we buy the equipment and work with it (and perhaps become frustrated), how do we know its limits or usefulness?

 

That's my point ... you have to know what's possible for any equipment, perfect equipment. Your ceiling height is one of your biggest problems ... also if you are standing with your vocal mics near any walls.

[Craig Vecchione]

Move the drummer's monitor up off the floor and position it at his head level pointed at the side of his head. Having it on the floor shooting up past the snare and hats always causes problems. This may help a bit, but don't expect miracles...it's simply too small a room for acoustic drums to begin with.

 

IEM's would be the only real solution that will work 'right out of the box'.

[MrJoshua]

Start experimenting to see if you can figure out if it's one particular mic that's the problem, or a combination. Turn down all the mics, then start increasing the volume on one of them slowly until you reach your target level. If you can get it loud without feedback, slowly add a second mic. Talk or sing into them as you go to make sure nothing is happening.

 

If you can't get even a single mic to come up without feedback, take one of your monitors offline, then try again with a single monitor. If that doesn't work, try the same thing with the second monitor (in other words, try it once with Monitor 1, and if that doesn't work, try it with Monitor 2). If you can get all the mics up to volume without feedback through one monitor, start working on finding a better position for the second.

 

If you're still having problems, roll off some highs. It's not a perfect solution, but it can help.

 

I'm pretty amateurish with this stuff, so take all of this with a grain of salt, but I hope it can help. Good luck!

[bassred]

We rehearse with our wedges in a circle, so each one is facing the ackside of the mic that is infront of it. the room is not much bigger than yours, but we have acoustical foam on the walls and ceiling.... Our drumme uses V-drums at times, which helps more than anything.

 

Have you tossed up the idea of using headphones? We did that for years, really helps to keep from killing your ears.

[jwlussow]

Is there a reason that no one mentioned in ear monitors? I read the post and didn't see where in ears were poo pooed.

[hanemkat]

I'm pretty amateurish with this stuff, so take all of this with a grain of salt, but I hope it can help. Good luck!

 

It does help. Each mic ALONE seems fine. So there's got to be a problem with the way I have all three combined and the rooms, etc.

[dboomer]

 

It does help. Each mic ALONE seems fine. So there's got to be a problem with the way I have all three combined and the rooms, etc.

 

 

Did you miss this part in my post above ...

 

 

Everytime you double the number of open mics you reduce the potential gain by a factor of 4 times

 

 

So one mic by itself can potentially have 5 or 6 times as much gain before feedback as when you turn all three mics.

[hanemkat]

 

Move the drummer's monitor up off the floor and position it at his head level pointed at the side of his head. Having it on the floor shooting up past the snare and hats always causes problems. This may help a bit, but don't expect miracles...it's simply too small a room for acoustic drums to begin with.

 

 

The monitor height adjustment is something we haven't tried but will try next time. I've sometimes wondered if his drums (very ringy Buddy Rich-like Vista Lites) could be contributing to the problem. It seems like the speakers help resonate the drums at an irritating frequency. This may not be true, just my perception of those blue plastic overtones. He has a set of Roland electronics, but the module part has been in a "shop" forever.

 

The main reason to use the acoustic drums in a small space (besides the drummer's hatred of electronics) is to replicate a real world situation. Would the 4th wall in our room (which wouldn't exist in our real world jobs) make the main difference?

 

 

IEM's would be the only real solution that will work 'right out of the box'.

 

 

That solution is attractive to me but would probably be $1800-$2200 for a three man low end system? It's one of these situations where I'm only doing the sound because no one else can be bothered...not because I know anything. IEM seems like a hard sell right now; I've got to look into it and read up on some better persuasive techniques.

 

By the way it was a quote of yours I read a month back about designing a permanent church PA that backed me off of the MixWizard purchase. You said something fittingly biblical like "why build a mansion in the midst of a slum." If we can save several hundred by buying a slummy, yet serviceable, mixer, we'll do it. I think your point was buy higher quality mics and speakers. In our case the speakers could become IEM if I learn enough about it to be convincing.

[hanemkat]

 

Did you miss this part in my post above ...

 

 

No I didn't miss it; I read your post. I was just responding to another poster.

 

 

Everytime you double the number of open mics you reduce the potential gain by a factor of 4 times

 

 

"You reduce the potential gain by a factor of 4 times" in my mind became "the more mics you have going, the quieter each one will sound...a lot quieter unless you want feedback." Probably an overly simplistic interpretation. Yet we need three mics; we're three people who sing constantly.

 

What I'm gathering is that a 16 x 26 room is too small for acoustic drums and three mics. And here we are.

[hanemkat]

 

Our drumme uses V-drums at times, which helps more than anything.

 

 

That seems right to me except that we get the feedback even before he plays.

 

 

Have you tossed up the idea of using headphones? We did that for years, really helps to keep from killing your ears.

 

 

I hadn't thought of it, and I actually have about 5 or 6 AKG and Sennheiser sets on hand along with a cheap (Rolls?) headphone amp. How did you run it? The vocal monitor mix just became the headphone mix?

[hanemkat]

 

Is there a reason that no one mentioned in ear monitors? I read the post and didn't see where in ears were poo pooed.

 

 

I've got to do more studying. Are there any drawbacks to in ear monitoring? A few years back when I was playing in a loud loud band, I was putting one ear plug in my right ear (next to the high hat and snare). It spared me audio hangovers the following morning but was a little disorienting when playing. Do the in ear monitors feel/sound natural?

[lifeloverwg]

It is true you only have so much gain to work with, unless of course you actually have something messed up in your system. If you really can't get vocals louder than they would be accousticaly before you turn any thing else on, then it seems to me you must have some systemic problem. Are you using compression, if so how is it set? What about effects, do you have them coming back into a channel strip with the corresponding aux send turned on? Any EQ boosted? How is your system gain set up? Which of your boards are you using now?

My wifes blues/rock band has practiced in small rooms for 5 years and rarely if ever had any feedback issues. But, they also never practice much louder than 85-90dBa. Early on they were louder, but the louder they got the more trouble they had actually hearing anything. The drummer had to switch to hot rods until she learned how to tone it down, and we did have to add some acoustic treatments to their first space to help get the vocals intelligible, but feedback was never an issue and it was just your basic suburban basement room about 12'x15'x8'. Now they are in a specially built space in a garage with the drummer and her vocal mic in a seperate room but three of them with two guitar and one bass amps are in a 8'x8' space with one vocal mic for lead while back up vocals just sing unamplified. How do you hear unamplified vocals? They turn down. One of the guitar amps is 15w, the bass amp is 50w and the other Fender Twin idles along at about 1 rather than 11. Sure it doesn't sound big and beefy with raging saturated rock star tone like when they get to play on a good outdoor stage, but so far everybody but the drummer still has their hearing and I can actually sit in on a practice and not feel beat up.

If you really can't get vocals loud without anything else on, than I think something is broken, something is hooked up wrong or your not loud must really be stupid loud.

 

Good luck, Winston.

[tmuka]

This is a great discussion with much good advice. I especially thing MrJoshua's tips are the way to go... The only thing I have to add is a warning about failing equipment... One band I was in had constant problems with feedback in the monitors, or in the mains, and then we eventually figured out that one of our amps was going bad. It was as if the pre-amp gain in the amp wasn't putting out as much voltage as it should, but then from time to time it would instantly jump up to a much higher volume causing feedback... If you have another amp/mixer around it would be a good idea to make sure the problem isn't just with your gear itself... Your issue with the feedback circuit of your mixer makes me wonder if the mixer doesn't have a demon of its own... good luck!

[modulusman]

You need a 31 band EQ. Maybe one of the peavey ones with the FLS.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

The monitor height adjustment is something we haven't tried but will try next time. I've sometimes wondered if his drums (very ringy Buddy Rich-like Vista Lites) could be contributing to the problem. It seems like the speakers help resonate the drums at an irritating frequency. This may not be true, just my perception of those blue plastic overtones. He has a set of Roland electronics, but the module part has been in a "shop" forever. The main reason to use the acoustic drums in a small space (besides the drummer's hatred of electronics) is to replicate a real world situation. Would the 4th wall in our room (which wouldn't exist in our real world jobs) make the main difference? That solution is attractive to me but would probably be $1800-$2200 for a three man low end system? It's one of these situations where I'm only doing the sound because no one else can be bothered...not because I know anything. IEM seems like a hard sell right now; I've got to look into it and read up on some better persuasive techniques. By the way it was a quote of yours I read a month back about designing a permanent church PA that backed me off of the MixWizard purchase. You said something fittingly biblical like "why build a mansion in the midst of a slum." If we can save several hundred by buying a slummy, yet serviceable, mixer, we'll do it. I think your point was buy higher quality mics and speakers. In our case the speakers could become IEM if I learn enough about it to be convincing.

 

 

"ringy'' drums do seem to aggravate feedback problems and it's worse in small rooms...it seems as if everything that makes noise in the room will oscillate the drumheads, which seem to always 'find' that frequency that's right on the edge of causing feedback, and give it that final push.... That's why I suggest V-drums or severely dampening the heads of acoustic drums in your type of situation. I know more than a few bands that have gone to using conga's and other percussion for practice instead of the full kit, both to save space, and to help the problems with hearing the band.

 

A low-cost IEM set up for practice/gigs...let's see if it's feasible. A Shure PSM-200 full kit with E-2, beltpack and transmitter is $600. A pair of beltpack/E-2 kits is about $700. That gives you one channel of monitoring and three body kits for $1,300. Less than the cost of a pair of decent wedges, amp, and dual 31-band EQ.

 

Note that if the drums are loud, you'll still have problems hearing yourselves with either IEM's or wedges...the drums bleeding into the vocal mics will wreak havoc with the monitor mix.

 

For now, get the Roland fixed asap, and try damping the drums and repositioning the monitors to see if there's any improvement with these changes.

[alcohol]

We're practicing with a very loud band in a small room with 7' ceilings. We have 2 4x8 sound absorbing panels on the ceiling over the drummer, a large bookshelf filled with books behind the drummer who is in the corner, a few pieces of auralex panels on the walls, and we use the Peavey Feedback Ferret. Tried it with the 31 band EQ and the 31 band EQ just isn't as good as the Feedback Ferret for a demanding situation like a small room. Also, we use high quality stands with sound isolating mic clips.

SM-58s for mics. That helped. No compression on the voices. No effects. Only two mics. Speakers are carefully placed.

[hanemkat]

Thanks to everyone who responded. The room size seemed to be the overwhelming consensus contributing to the problem so that's what we changed for this past Sunday's practice (took a pair of 450s and practiced in a "proven" larger rehearsal room). And practice went much better; we could hear vocals fine. But many tips were handy that will be implemented in my own room: get the drummer and his mic away from a back wall, get some stuff on the ceiling as well as walls, get a 31 band graphic, and look into IEM (which aren't as pricey as I expected...since I'm looking for one channel that will combine all vocals).

 

One feedback oddity that happened at Sunday's practice (and had happened in my practice room also, but so did too many other audio mishaps): on the Mackie 450s there's a low cut button, which I always push in. And on the Mackie mixer (I think a 1402) in the room we used, I also pushed the low 75 Hz cut button for each mic channel. For some reason, a lower frequency feedback developed, sounding like a floor tom "note." When I disengaged low cut buttons on the mixer, the low feedback went away. It's almost like a low-mid BOOST occurred when the low cut was engaged. I tried it several times to make sure the low cut buttons did it, and without fail, the mixer cut buttons ADDED feedback. It happened, so I know it's possible. But HOW can that be possible?

 

And referring back to some advice received two months ago, I ordered 2 Yorkville NX55P and also an LS720P Monday. Should be arriving Friday. Thanks.