Members btneumann Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 Hi, I am undertaking a massive subwoofer research project for an auditorium that seats approximately 3,000. The auditorium currently has and array of 18" passive subs. However, they are very flat, and I am looking into options for future replacement, and I am responsible for researching and presenting information regarding different options. Would anyone know of some different sources that I could use in researching this? Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 What do you want to know ... exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 They are very "flat"? As in skinny, response, unimpressive looking??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted October 10, 2007 Members Share Posted October 10, 2007 They are very "flat"? As in skinny, response, unimpressive looking??? Exactly my thoughts, flat doesn't say much. Also, a run-down of what you already have and what is wrong with it would not go astray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 11, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted October 11, 2007 "Flat" can be a very good thing too... as in "response is flat down to 20Hz". So who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 yea, .. how large is large? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 Would anyone know of some different sources that I could use in researching this? Thanks!! To answer your actual question, given the right parameters here is a very good source for your research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 Sub placement can actually kill (or enhance) a lot of the sound. Where are they located? Try putting them together at the center of the stage and see what happens to the sound. I've seen bands that had great looking systems that sounded like crap because of phase and/or placement problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 How may subs is an array? How many geese in a gagle? You get the idea. What is the setup right now? How do you want to improve it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 12, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted October 12, 2007 Our man has not been on here since he posted this. I wouldn't get too concerned until, and if....he ever replies with more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members btneumann Posted October 17, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2007 The current set up consists of 5 BagEnd D18E-C. They are located under the steps of the stage. The sound does not fill the room, it only affects primarily those close to the stage, and overall they lack punch and make for more of a muddy sound rather than clear. We are looking at most likely rigging our next subs as Clark Pro Media will be doing our work. I've currently been looking at Danley, QSC, and Meyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted October 17, 2007 Members Share Posted October 17, 2007 The current set up consists of 5 BagEnd D18E-C. They are located under the steps of the stage. The sound does not fill the room, it only affects primarily those close to the stage, and overall they lack punch and make for more of a muddy sound rather than clear. We are looking at most likely rigging our next subs as Clark Pro Media will be doing our work. I've currently been looking at Danley, QSC, and Meyer. Have you thought that perhaps the problem isn't with the subs at all, but maybe with how you're using them? A couple of thoughts: 1. What are your mains? 2. What is your crossover and dsp?3. Can you fly the current subs legally? That will give you better coverage.4. How big is your room and where are your subs positioned? Can you draw a pic to scale?FWIW: When I think of a sub, I tend to think of a boom sound. When you have your subs, lows and tops right, you get the "punch" by a combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 17, 2007 Members Share Posted October 17, 2007 Flying your subs may reduce the punch and certainly require more of them to achieve the same low freq. cutoff. I would first IDENTIFY what is really causing the problem. Perhaps your contractor can d a detailed analysis BEFORE ASSUMING the problem is with the subs or placement. Just s gut feeling but I suspect it's not. Flying heavy subs adds a LOT of weight to the structure. If you choose to do this, be sure your contractor gets you a copy of the structural engineer's report and have the inspection of the finished install done by this engineer and signed off. Be sure to keep a copy of the report and signoff along with your building's certificate of occupancy in the event of a catastrophic accident OR if asked by the building official or insurance investigator in a future building inspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted October 17, 2007 Members Share Posted October 17, 2007 I would first IDENTIFY what is really causing the problem. Right...the OP said he wanted to research options. It would only seem natural to me that if he is doing research, to see how his equipment is being used now. Also the spec sheet says something about using a specific crossover. It wouldn't be hard to imagine a fly-by-night contractor dumping a bunch of gear into an improperly designed system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 17, 2007 Members Share Posted October 17, 2007 Is this by chance a church project??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members btneumann Posted October 18, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 18, 2007 1. What are your mains? Varied EAW components including some combinations of double 15" and double 12" in the main clusters. We are running a left-center-right system that was originally designed in tune by Acoustic Dimensions. 2. What is your crossover and dsp? Peavey Media Matrix 3. Can you fly the current subs legally? That will give you better coverage. Yes. 4. How big is your room and where are your subs positioned? Can you draw a pic to scale? This is a church project. You can see a pic here on the main page of the auditorium: www.covlife.org FWIW: When I think of a sub, I tend to think of a boom sound. When you have your subs, lows and tops right, you get the "punch" by a combination. jasps is offline Reply With Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted October 18, 2007 Members Share Posted October 18, 2007 AD does great work. When you say "originally designed in tune," has something been changed? That statement is rather nebulous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 18, 2007 Members Share Posted October 18, 2007 As per my original suggestion, I think a diagnosis to identify what the problem is before looking at any possible solution. There could be Media Matrix programming issues, I have seen plenty of cases where mistakes (or lack of good judgement) was made with this type of system. Sometimes the solution is so simple (and does NOT involve the equipment itself) that you look stupid for making assumptions before identifying the problem. Just finished a service call last week where the problem was caused by just this and the solution cost $600 in labor and $0 in parts. They were convinced that they needed a major overhaul. Turns out it was a simple user error involving a compressor and an inline vs. insert problem that was obvioius to me but not to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted October 18, 2007 Members Share Posted October 18, 2007 As per my original suggestion, I think a diagnosis to identify what the problem is before looking at any possible solution. There could be Media Matrix programming issues, I have seen plenty of cases where mistakes (or lack of good judgement) was made with this type of system. Sometimes the solution is so simple (and does NOT involve the equipment itself) that you look stupid for making assumptions before identifying the problem. Just finished a service call last week where the problem was caused by just this and the solution cost $600 in labor and $0 in parts. They were convinced that they needed a major overhaul. Turns out it was a simple user error involving a compressor and an inline vs. insert problem that was obvioius to me but not to them. I agree 100%, .. but the way some chuchs are workign these days they seem to WANT that 10,000$ solution, not the 600$ one. have you considered makeing a "zero phase shift, all pass filter, with consistent unity gain" box to sell them ? Okay that was a bit of a cheap shot. It just seems to me that it is a bit ironic that churchs seem much more interested in investing in gear, then people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 18, 2007 Members Share Posted October 18, 2007 I agree 100%, .. but the way some chuchs are workign these days they seem to WANT that 10,000$ solution, not the 600$ one. have you considered makeing a "zero phase shift, all pass filter, with consistent unity gain" box to sell them ?Okay that was a bit of a cheap shot.It just seems to me that it is a bit ironic that churchs seem much more interested in investing in gear, then people. I think you may be onto something more than you realize Kevin. Something has to suport all those fancy church sound magazines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members btneumann Posted October 19, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 19, 2007 That is definitely wise input as we would not want to do an unnecessary overhaul if not needed. We have Clark Pro Media scheduled to come in and do an examination of the whole system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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