Band PA help!

[kenin]

Hey guys! I am new to this forum, but I had to throw you a situation and see what your advice might be.

 

I have a band, we're more or less progressive death metal. The bassist and I play through our own single cabs. We're looking for a sound reinforcement setup to run our sound through simultaneously with the amps. Primarily, our goal is to provide amplification for our singer, while backing up the sound from the rest of the band as well. The inputs would basically be: 2 xlr direct guitar outs, 2 xlr direct bass outs, 1 bass trigger out, 2 vocal outs.

 

I'm wondering what we'd need to suffice this. Granted, mixers aren't really a problem, I can probably figure that one out myself, but suggestions are more than welcome! I'm thinking more in terms of how much wattage we'd need, and what speakers would do well with a full-band sound with generally all frequencies. Right now my thoughts are ranging at all ends of the spectrum, from just getting a Behringer PA package to a full-blown Crown power amp with 4 JBL speakers, complete with a 10 space SKB rack to accommodate Furman power conditioner, Alesis rack mixer, Focusrite vocal preamp, BBE sonic maximizer, etc.

 

Steer me in a more guided direction, fellas! I'm listening. Thank you! -Kenin

[BillESC]

Welcome to Harmony.

 

I'd suggest active cabinets, two mid high speakers and two subs.

 

Forget Behringer, forget BBE and go for a decent mixer.

 

There are lots of active speaker lines to choose from and which to suggest will depend on the size venues you expect to play in. Tell us more.

[jwlussow]

If you get a decent board you won't need the vocal pre. I suggest going with some active speakers (2 tops and 2 subs to start). What about the drums? Are you going to be micing them? What about monitors? How loud is your stage volume. You will get a better, fuller sound with lower stage volume while micing everything. The lower stage volume will help the singer, also. If you go with JBLs, don't do the JRX line. They are decent entry level stuff but death metal needs the MRX or PRX subs or similiar. There is also an argument here about the sonic maximizer. Some say they are awesome and some say they are a waste of money. I believe if you invest in good speakers the sonic maximizer, while it has a cool name, is pretty much worthless. Many here will disagree.

 

Make sure you get a mixer that will handle all the channels you throw at it. If you buy a 6 channel and after trying the new system decide to mic drums you've just wasted money. Look at the Allen & Heath Mixwizard3. It is pretty much the standard and offers everything you should ever need.

 

Buy once, cry once. I've wasted tens of thousands of dollars buying stuff that I've either outgrown or just really didn't like.

[Gary in NJ]

Budget?

 

Typical venue size?

[WynnD]

As a sound guy, I don't like direct in on guitars. Not against trying it, just check out the results at a rehearsal. Bass on the other hand works fine DI.

 

(There are no $500 starter PAs for Metal bands. you can get away with one for an acoustic group.)

[Gary in NJ]

 

(There are no $500 starter PAs for Metal bands. you can get away with one for an acoustic group.)

 

 

I'm here to tell that you can't even get away with a $500 budget for an acoustic band. We tried and failed. As of now we have over $3,000 invested in our PA, and we're about to invest more. I will be adding better FOH speakers and a powered sub, at an additional cost of about $2,000. This would be the minimum for a metal band as well.

 

So, in my opinion, I think a starter budget isn't $500, but 10x that number.

[jwlussow]

For a death metal band I'd think somewhere between $7,500 and $10,000 would be more in line. Subs are important and the music will be thin and empty without them.

[fishmanrod]

Agree, $5 K might get you there. I have 550 watt powered top boxes, 1000 watt subs, all Yorkville, and they sound great for our Modern/Classic cover band, but would not be enough for death metal. You need kick drum that will kill you for death metal otherwise your audience will be going WTF! That is 4 K in speakers alone, new. Buy your stuff used at a reputable dealer, and spend some dough on the board, with lots of channels. More channels are pretty cheap, but not having them really sucks.

 

I suggest if you are just getting started buy a board and powered monitors (or EIM's) and RENT the big PA stuff for the gigs. That way you will also develop an opinion on what works and what does not.

 

Cheers!

[Craig Vecchione]

JBL PRX mid-highs and tops, and don't forget monitors.

 

Mixwiz 16:2

 

dbx crossover, and a pair of dual 31-band EQ's. OR Driverack and one dual 31-band EQ.

 

Good substitutions: Peavey FX mixer, QSC HPR speakers, Yorkville speakers, Samson or DOD processing.

[6Imzadi]

Agreed on the $10K system for metal as basic.

 

My 10,000 watt system is big enough for rooms of up to 500 people, but the back sounds like a stereo system. Not real loud, but that's alright for me and those who want to listen but not be blown away. The regular band plays top 40 dance and has the "brown note" kick and there are keys, too.

 

Those amps in the photos are QSC 3402s, the speakers are Peavey DTH 218 and S4 tops. There are 4 monitor mixes, but the drummer is IEM.

 

Processing is by way of a dBx driverack PA, gates for the drums, compressors for the vocal group(s), a delay for the lead vocal, reverb for the drums, and a light module so these old eyes can see stuff in the dark. It also helps that the light module has outlets on it so I can plug stuff in, but it by NO MEANS does ANY conditioning, no matter what the label says. Each monitor mix also has an eq. There is also two snakes; One for the mics to plug into and onother for all the drive signals to go back to the amps.

 

Hope this helps.

[kenin]

Hey guys! Love the input! This is what I was brainstorming late into the night, before I received your posts.

 

***

(*) -- Already have!

 

(*) -- Furman PL Plus 2 Power Conditioner: 1u

Antares Vocal Producer: 1u

(*) -- TC Electronic G-Major: 1u (for vocal reverb, put in Antares FX Loop)

(*) -- Alesis Drum Module: 1u (for bass drum trigger)

Alesis MultiMix 12R Rack Mixer: 3u

(*) -- BBE 362 Sonic Maximizer: 1u (in Alesis FX Loop)

Crown XTi 2000 Power Amp: 2u

(powers JBL JRX 125 Pair)

***

 

I'll just throw that out there and you can comment if you like. But there will be no trashing of the BBE! Hahaha. Yes, yes. I'm a believer. Did wonders for my old guitar rack, and whatever else I put it in front of. If you hate them, then just scan over the fact I have one. =) As you can see from my list above (of course, minus the things I already have), I'm looking at just over $2k...I'd like to stay around that as much as possible. I'd say $2500, max for now.

 

Before I go further, I'd like to say that the primary purpose for this setup would be to get our singer in the mix, and even out the practice room sound levels so that we don't crank our own amps so hard. I don't expect to use this setup for shows at this point. Simply put, we don't have $10k or the patience to set something like that up! Donations are currently being accepted, however.

 

jwlussow: I listed the JBL JRX 125 pair. If you still believe that this would not be adequate for our situation, then I'll very much consider researching the MRX/PRX line. There is no micing of the drums, just a bass drum trigger from an Alesis drum module (DM5?...I forgot the exact model). I'd LIKE to have everything in a 10u rack, if possible. I already have one of those! I'll look at the A&H Mixwizard3.

 

WynnD: I'll see how the DI guitar signal works. I'll also be running my 4x12 cab with my Line6 HD147.

 

I also have a Behringer 2498(?) Ultracurve, MDX 1400 Compressor, with no real knowledge on how to dial in either one of them...I'm mainly a guitarist! Haha.

 

I've read everyone's post intently, and I thank you much for your responses now, and in advance!

 

Kenin

[twostone]

Add subs and turn down the amps and your done end of story your not gonna get Slayer SPL with out financing sorry won't happen metal=$$$$$$$$ not knocking metal I'm a big metal fan myself. peace out

[paulwannabe]

I would suggest considering your needs before you buy anything. Is this a garage band, a semi-professional band, or a professional band? If you are playing gigs, what types of venues will you be playing? How often will you play out? And finally, what kind of a budget are you working with?

 

I would not recommend buying equipment that you don't really need. A garage band does not need a full-blown PA system, just something to amplify the vocals. A semi-pro band that has gigs spaced few and far between would probably save money to just rent a PA system. But if you are playing out frequently, then you are going to need a good P.A. system. But if you're going to put money into it, buy equipment that is going to be reliable and last a long time. Stay away from cheap brands. It will hurt you in the long run. You will most likely end up dissastisfied with the capabilites of your equipment, then decide to upgrade. It's better to cough up the extra money and get something good the first time around. I would recommend Yamaha gear. Or Peavey. They are both reliable brands that are pretty reasonably priced. Just remember, you get what you pay for. Don't be taken in by cheap brands. You'll only lose money.

[jwlussow]

Do a sound comparison of the JRX vs MRX and see if the difference is worth extra cost. It really comes down to money but the MRX might be worth a serious consideration...as would the Mixwiz.

 

No problem with the BBE. Some love and some hate it. It really doesn't matter to me since I don't use one anyway.

[kenin]

Right now, we're a garage band getting back on our feet. We would like to go as far as we can. My drummer just got done touring with the Faceless last year. We have professional drums, guitars and amps. We just need something to add our singer in, and fatten up our sound for jams. I imagine if things to take off and we're playing tours and bigger shows, we'll upgrade to the appropriate PA setup to take on the road with us. That's about as much as I can say now for sure.

[Rbts]

 

Right now, we're a garage band getting back on our feet. We would like to go as far as we can. My drummer just got done touring with the Faceless last year. We have professional drums, guitars and amps. We just need something to add our singer in, and fatten up our sound for jams. I imagine if things to take off and we're playing tours and bigger shows, we'll upgrade to the appropriate PA setup to take on the road with us. That's about as much as I can say now for sure.

 

 

I would suggest that you get a couple of the best powered speakers that you can afford.... They might cost $ 800 - $900 each... but that would be a good start... and the powered boxes are just so nice sounding for one thing... but even more importantly, perhaps... they are so flexible... and will find a bunch of uses as your circumstances change over time. Three powered speakers, and a passive mixer with some effects built in is enough to do a LOT of stuff (and permits one to be used as a monitor, which can become very important). Actually, I might almost suggest that you work on making sure that you have adequate monitors FIRST... because unless the singer can hear themselves clearly, you are going to have trouble... and if the moniter system is good enough.. it makes practicing so much easier, and is almost enough to go ahead and play many little jams or parties with. In small venues... you may not have to thicken up the other instruments as much as you think.

 

Try to buy something now that you will still be able to use (for something) when things get going better, and it is time to do your upgrades.

[deltapatch]

What about Mackie active(powered) subs and cabs for FOH?

SR1530s x2

SWA1501s x2

[Crownman]

 

What about Mackie active(powered) subs and cabs for FOH? SR1530s x2 SWA1501s x2

 

 

I work regularly with an original country/rock band that uses a pair the 1530s, however for the lows they use a pair of the 1801s. If we get a room with any more than 80-100 people we're hurting big time. They sound great but just can't compete with a decently large crowd. So if yoiu use the 1501s they might not put out what you want, depending on the room size of course.

[Squier Fat Telecaster]

Build a monitor system for practice. You can do stereo sidefills with two nice powered cabs and a dual 31 band EQ between the cabs and mixer.

 

see my local dealers below for ideas

[jwlussow]

 

I work regularly with an original country/rock band that uses a pair the 1530s, however for the lows they use a pair of the 1801s. If we get a room with any more than 80-100 people we're hurting big time. They sound great but just can't compete with a decently large crowd. So if yoiu use the 1501s they might not put out what you want, depending on the room size of course.

 

 

That is what I've heard also. I'm glad you beat me to the punch because I have never heard them myself but I know of their reputation. I doubt if they would do an adequate job with progressive death metal.

 

I believe the OP would be best off with PRXs or Yorkies.

[aw_dee_o]

It sounds like you've already got a lot of the basic stuff. Having said that, concentrate on your speakers. The speakers are not only going to influence what you hear the most, they are also the most lossy part of the audio reproduction chain. Most speakers are less than 5% efficient, meaning that greater than 95% of the electrical energy that an amp can deliver is wasted as heat / thermal losses in the speaker.

 

Anybody that does not know / realize / take this factor into account will never have a system that performs as it could or should. Moving up a few percent in speaker efficiency is the same as going up in power output by a few thousand watts. Which one do you think would be easier and cheaper to do???

 

As such, you want to look for speakers that are highly efficient i.e. produce very high spl's with very little input power. That's only a VERY small part of the equation though. Another important factor is radiation pattern, which is how the speaker distributes the sound that it produces. What good is a speaker that rocks the house, but can only do so if you're standing directly in line with it within 10'? Obviously, you've got to produce a LOT of sound, but that sound has to be distributed in reasonable fashion if you want everyone that isn't right in front of the speaker to hear it.

 

Once you've learned about speaker sensitivity and radiation patterns, start looking at the usable frequency response of the speaker. If you want to play loud and spread the sound out, you can do this with a reasonable sized speaker. If you want to add gut-wrenching bottom end to the former system description, the speaker requirements just got a LOT bigger.

 

I could go on and on here, and believe me, i'm EXTREMELY familiar with your situation, but i'll save it. Most of my recommendations will fly in the face of what is the conventional method of reproduction recommended here. If you are interested, look at my recent posts pertaining to the BBE Sonic Maximizer thread and another recent thread pertaining to PA speaker selection. You can contact me privately at your convenience should you choose to do so. Sean

 

PS... The mains i'm running now for smaller shows cost me under $150 total, including several layers of fresh paint on the six cabinets. I did this by shopping carefully amongst the used market ( Ebay, Craigslist, various used music stores, etc... ) and being VERY "handy".

 

No need for mega-dollars when you understand electronics and acoustics. You only end up paying big money when you're uneducated about a given subject and at the mercy of those that want to take advantage of you. Learn and do what YOU can and you will be a lot wiser, richer and better off in the long run.