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So I've got this bar, a live music venue. May huge problem is everyone wants to play WAY TOO LOUD.

 

I get customer complaint after customer complaint. I bitch and moan to the bands and they turn it down from 11 to 10. Sometime they cooperate, sometimes they don't.

 

The other night after an amazing act (they've played bonaroo etc) I gave the guys pizza, beer, etc. and kindly asked them to instruct me. WHY DO YOU PLAY SO FRIGGIN LOUD????

 

They told me about stage volume vs audience volume. "I can't here me friggin guitar mate!" I've been told I need to mic all their amps, get a bohemiath set of monitors and blow the sound back at them.

 

Here's my question (finally, right?): Could the rock bands need better sound/engineering/equipment or are they blowing smoke and really want to play loud just so they can feel like Ozzy?

 

I'm running a business, not a wayward home for runaway wannabe rock stars!!!

 

p.s. I've got a real stage with nice jbl pa's, monitors, amps, snakes, lights, blah$$$ blah$$$.

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Hehe...we usually try to start our volume around 7 and go up if needed. This past weekend we played a bar for the first time and before we even started the owner told us that she may ask us to turn down. Not a problem for us, but she said sometimes bands get mad when she asks them. I told her to just let me know through the first few songs and we will accomodate.

 

We actually got down to about 5 at the beginning, but finished the night at around 9 when the crowd picked up. The owner was very happy with us, so I'm pretty sure we will be asked back.

 

I've been in the audience with bands playing at hurricane volume, and its just annoying, even if they are good musically. I try to keep that in mind when setting levels.

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Also, to help answer your question:

 

 

"I can't here me friggin guitar mate!"

 

 

The best description I ever read about this is at guitarnuts.

 

 

"I need a 100-watt amp 'cause my band has started gigging in clubs." This is a myth that I believe originates with hormonally imbalanced teens who have more experience watching movies about teen bands than they have playing real gigs. Unfortunately, it's a self-perpetuating myth because the rhythm player is going to get a big amp 'cause he's being drowned out by the lead player, then the bass has to get a 400 watt amp to be heard at all, then they need a 1200 watt PA system so that the vocals have some chance of being heard over the cacophony from the guitars and bass, and finally they end up having to mic the drummer even in a small club because the drummer is breaking sticks and skins and still can't be heard over the racket. Within a few years their hearing has been permanently damaged and they all decide that they need bigger amps! Three-quarters deaf, they finally make the big time and the guitar magazines write about the gang of three 100-watt stacks that the guitar hero uses on stage and all the wannabees have just gotta have the same rig. . . As you can imagine, this is another myth that sales weenies on commission are in no hurry to debunk!

 

 

So true...LOL

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The owner was very happy with us, so I'm pretty sure we will be asked back.


I've been in the audience with bands playing at hurricane volume, and its just annoying, even if they are good musically. I try to keep that in mind when setting levels.

those things mean nothing w/o any means of basing them against.

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those things mean nothing w/o any means of basing them against.

 

Good point...hmm. OK, for the gig in question the first row of tables was about 25ft away across the dance floor. With the volume at "7", I could see people at those tables having to lean into each other a little to talk, but it didn't look like they were shouting. People towards the back of the bar were singing along, maybe another 100ft away, so they could hear us pretty good. If I had to make a guess, I would say we were pushing around 100-150W through the PA.:idk:

 

I was actually a little surprised when they initially asked us to turn down.

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Bands screw themselves all the time with volume. The smart thing to do is when you write out a setlist don't start with a loud song. If you can play some mellow songs to begin with then peoples ears will adjust to the volume. If you hit them with something loud and hard first song be prepared to turn down.

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I've only seen this at one place, and it worked perfect -- the back of the stage was actually elevated, almost like a drum riser. It's hard to explain, but just imagine a drum riser that ran the entire length of the back of the stage, but only stuck out about two feet, and was about three feet off the ground. The band was told that any speaker cabinets needed to be sitting on this elevated "shelf".

 

Doing this allowed the guitar cabinets to always be blasting the guitarists right in the back of the head, instead of the people in the audience. It worked very well, for the most part -- any bands I saw there had their guitar amps a lot lower than most other times I saw them. I remember our rhythm guitarist bitching about it at one point. He said he hates elevating his cabinet because it's just so loud then! I told him that's what the audience has to put up with at other places! He never seemed to get it.

 

Get as much sound dampening as possible, get the guitarists to point their speakers at their heads somehow (and that elevated section is probably the best way to do it, IMO), and make sure they're mic'ed and run into the monitors. If they are still too loud, mark their name down and don't book them again.

 

I hate going to bars where the band is obnoxiously loud when they aren't the focus. At a concert or a club, then yeah, people are there FOR the band. At a bar, people are there to socialize, drink, and get laid -- and an overbearing band prevents that.

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+1 for getting the speakers up into the band's ears. either tilt the amp back or use a chair or something to elevate the speakers. high sounds are very directional, so having a speaker pointed right at you really punishes your ears with 'presence', which is exactly what the guitarist craves and what the audience hates.

 

another idea is to put the guitar amps on either side of the stage and point them towards the middle of the stage. the sound guy will love this because there will be less guitars bleeding into the vocal mics and less stage sound blasting into the room, giving him more control over the mix. bonus points awarded for putting the amps on the side of the stage AND tilting them up.

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If I've got room, I sit my 2x12s on tables, with the rack and amps in between them. That gives me the best sound and "feel", and I don't have to be very loud at all to hear myself fine. A lot of smaller places we play, I'm stuck with a single 2x12 under my rack (so at ankle level) and I struggle to hear anything. Still don't turn it up though, just put a bit of guitar in my monitor (I normally only have vocals and keyboards in the monitor).

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So I've got this bar, a live music venue. May huge problem is everyone wants to play WAY TOO LOUD.


I get customer complaint after customer complaint. I bitch and moan to the bands and they turn it down from 11 to 10. Sometime they cooperate, sometimes they don't.

 

 

It's your place, correct?

 

You're the one who pays the bands, correct?

 

You decide who plays, and who doesn't and who returns and who doesn't, correct?

 

 

I fail to see a problem here. Kindly and professionally explain your requirements for the entertainment before hiring a band. If they simply can't contain their volume to the point where you and most importantly *your patrons* (the ones who are paying you and the band) are happy, then they can decline the gig, no hard feelings.

 

If they can't oblige the commitment they made during a show, give them ONE warning, and then end their show at the end of the first set if the warning isn't heeded.

 

You are in control here, and need to keep your patrons, not the band's ego, satisfied.

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Your complaint is one of the reasons why my band gets so many gigs and bar/club owners love us. we also do a lot of private parties, corporate gigs, etc. We play an eclectic mix of covers going from classic rock to country to 80's,90's and modern. You never know what's coming next. Anyway, we no longer use any amps on stage. Our drummer was already using a Roland TD-20 kit and our singer who plays a little rhythm guitar was using a Floor POD. Originally myself (bass) and our guitar player were using amps but we switched over to using POD XT Live floorboards. After getting everything dialed in and getting used to the new setup, we get a great sound at just about any volume in just about any room or outdoors. Granted, we have a great sounding PA and I know how to get the sound we need out of it so that helps. We also have 4 monitor mixes so each of us can hear what we need. Some guys don't like the modelers but for doing covers in various venues, it has been great. We've been running this way for about 9 months or so now and we all agree we'll never go back.

 

Tell them what you expect up front and if they don't comply shut them down and/or don't hire them again.

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I've only seen this at one place, and it worked perfect -- the back of the stage was actually elevated, almost like a drum riser. It's hard to explain, but just imagine a drum riser that ran the entire length of the back of the stage, but only stuck out about two feet, and was about three feet off the ground. The band was told that any speaker cabinets needed to be sitting on this elevated "shelf".

 

Doing this allowed the guitar cabinets to always be blasting the guitarists right in the back of the head, instead of the people in the audience. It worked very well, for the most part

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have trouble with bleed on my vocal mic when I do this. My vocal mic is not far from my ear level as well. I like my amp on the floor in front of me next to my stage monitor, or on the side of the stage.

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Good discussion.

I always just use a 2x12, put that on top of my 8-space rack on wheels, and then my head on top of that. That's elevated enough so that I pretty much get what the audience gets, and then I have everything on the side of the stage pointing toward me.

Never had problems with hearing myself even at moderate volumes, even with a death metal drummer (I'm glad those times are over though).

Oh, a lot of mids help too.

 

Andy

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Another option -- get some plexiglass panels to put in front of the bands' backlines? Anything you can do to reduce the on-stage sound will allow you to reduce the level of the PA and thus make it quieter in the bar. The amps will *need* to be mic'ed, though.

 

If you really wanted to make an investment into getting quieter music, you could purchase an electronic drum kit for the stage, and leave it up there permanently. You might get some bands arguing, but as a drummer, I'd freaking love to be able to show up and not have to load in a drum kit, and know that I'm getting a great sound all night. Casinos do this and don't seem to have many problems, but they're probably dealing with more pro-level bands than it seems like you are, so you might run into issues with durability/breakage/etc.

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It's your place, correct?


You're the one who pays the bands, correct?


You decide who plays, and who doesn't and who returns and who doesn't, correct?



I fail to see a problem here. Kindly and professionally explain your requirements for the entertainment before hiring a band. If they simply can't contain their volume to the point where you and most importantly *your patrons* (the ones who are paying you and the band) are happy, then they can decline the gig, no hard feelings.


If they can't oblige the commitment they made during a show, give them ONE warning, and then end their show at the end of the first set if the warning isn't heeded.


You are in control here, and need to keep your patrons, not the band's ego, satisfied.

 

I personally believe many/most bands have no real clue what is appropriate. In-fact they don't even have any kind of feedback loop to judge an appropriate SPL level to the crowd. All they see is expressed support from some percentage of the audience who appear to support the higher volume levels. Generally we seek-out and feed off of positive reinforcement... most seek out the carrot rather than a stick... therefore, the percentage of crowd that seems to support "crank it up" is what the band feeds off-of.

 

I suggest a feedback loop system in real time to give the band an indication of what's appropriate for the percentage of the crowd that the inn keeper is aiming to please. I'd say the inn keeper (or the staff to which has had authority delegated to them) would be the best judge, not the band, nor the few in the crowd who exhibit actions supporting "crank it up". I suggest this for a feedback system:

 

1) If all the stage lights are full on RED, then the band's too loud. If it's way too loud, then the stage lighting is cut down to one red light.

2) If the stage lights are bopping along as usual, then the volume is in the pocket (fine).

3) Which ever performer's instrument is not in the mix because their stage volume is excessive, then their monitor will remain off until the performer reels it in appropriately.

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I personally believe many/most bands have no real clue what is appropriate. In-fact they don't even have any kind of feedback loop to judge an appropriate SPL level to the crowd. All they see is expressed support from some percentage of the audience who appear to support the higher volume levels. Generally we seek-out and feed off of positive reinforcement... most seek out the carrot rather than a stick... therefore, the percentage of crowd that seems to support "crank it up" is what the band feeds off-of.


I suggest a feedback loop system in real time to give the band an indication of what's appropriate for the percentage of the crowd that the inn keeper is aiming to please. I'd say the inn keeper (or the staff to which has had authority delegated to them) would be the best judge, not the band, nor the few in the crowd who exhibit actions supporting "crank it up". I suggest this for a feedback system:


1) If all the stage lights are full on RED, then the band's too loud. If it's way too loud, then the stage lighting is cut down to one red light.

2) If the stage lights are bopping along as usual, then the volume is in the pocket (fine).

3) Which ever performer's instrument is not in the mix because their stage volume is excessive, then their monitor will remain off until the performer reels it in appropriately.

 

I love it.

 

 

'Course I anticipate a lot of bands playing to one red light with no monitors for the lead guitarist....;)

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I love it.



'Course I anticipate a lot of bands playing to one red light with no monitors for the lead guitarist....
;)

I'd say 1 full song with just one red light throughout the song, that will be their last song... in that club... and no pay for a truncated performance due to non-compliance.

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The other night after an amazing act (they've played bonaroo etc) I gave the guys pizza, beer, etc. and kindly asked them to instruct me. WHY DO YOU PLAY SO FRIGGIN LOUD????


They told me about stage volume vs audience volume. "I can't here me friggin guitar mate!" I've been told I need to mic all their amps, get a bohemiath set of monitors and blow the sound back at them.


Here's my question (finally, right?): Could the rock bands need better sound/engineering/equipment or are they blowing smoke and really want to play loud just so they can feel like Ozzy?


p.s. I've got a real stage with nice jbl pa's, monitors, amps, snakes, lights, blah$$$ blah$$$.

 

 

 

 

Is each monitor on its own mix...

 

What are the specs of the monitor system?

 

Whats the details of the room? Size, Location of Stage....

Any acoustic treatment around the room?

 

Do you have a compatent engineer mixing the rig and monitors?

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I've played at quite a few places where volume is a big concern. Many of them have a soundtech that is given the job of the "volume police". He/she informs the bands of the club's volume limitations, suggests ways for the musicians to limit their volume, AND informs them in no uncertain terms what will happen if the stage volume gets too loud (usually termination, banned from club....)

 

In many clubs now, they have baffles that sit right in front of the guitar cabs. This can really help. I personally travel with my own pexiglass baffle that sits in front of my Blues Jr. (15 watts) which is still too loud for many of the places I play. Another trick is to point all guitar cabs across the stage, if the guitarists don't like baffles.

 

As noted elsewhere in this thread I have seen plexiglass surrounding the drums (not a great option but...).

 

Lots of ways to limit volume, but being assertive, with consequences to back it up, is where you might start.

 

Don't give up on live music, there are many musicians out there who will (and want to) play at a reasonable volume. Seek and ye shall find.

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A lot of it is education to the bands... have a dB meter, and know how to use it and explain why it's too #**

 

One other wise old sound dude had a pretty good approach - have the means available to tilt amps back to point up at the player's head... and don't ask, just do. Go up there and tilt stuff back, have an explanation ready but don't ask permission.

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