Members stix 518 Posted September 26, 2009 Members Share Posted September 26, 2009 Background: 5-Piece Classic Rock Covers band... Drums, Bass, Guitar, Keys & Female Frontperson. Three of the four musicians also sing - some leads, mostly background/harmonies. Drums utilize 3 mic'd channels @ XLR + 1 SPDS @ 1/4. Keys (1/4) also plays guitar (both elect. + accoustic through same amp mic'd to PA @ XLR). Bass is direct @ 1/4. Lead Guitar is mic'd amp @ XLR. All instruments & vox are through PA. All vox XLR no phantom. Two monitor mixes - primary is fed to all FOH instruments through Aux 1 (bridged mono Crown XLS 402) to two wedges. Drummer uses IEM's through Aux 2 and a headphone amp. Mains & Monitors are each run through one channel of a Behringer FBQ3102. 8 Channels of Main mix are processed through a Behringer MDX4600 compressor (X2) - 4 vox, kick & guitars. Mains are fed through two (2) bridged mono Crown XLS602 - one handling each side - to Carvin TR1801 Subs and Carvin TR1503 cabs - utilizing the internal crossover on the subs. We currently have a Spirit by Soundcraft FX16 mixer w/ on-board lexicon FX and are pretty happy with what we've got. But I have a shot at an Allen & Heath Mixwiz 3 on the cheap and was wondering... Which mixer is better. The Soundcraft or the A & H? Thanks for your help!! Stix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 26, 2009 Members Share Posted September 26, 2009 Both are ok boards IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stix 518 Posted September 26, 2009 Author Members Share Posted September 26, 2009 Thanks AH. Also, as I have been lurking for some time and always have found your input to be spot on (not sucking up!). Why are you generally opposed to bridging an amp i.e. we currently are bridging our XLS's with, what we feel is, excellent results. Nice powerful lows through the subs, clear mids and highs. What is the upside and downside to the way we are doing it (as outlined above) and, do you have any suggestions for doing it better? Thanks for your expert opinion. Stix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 26, 2009 Members Share Posted September 26, 2009 When a bridged amp fails, generallythe results are spectacular and costly. Also, in many cases bridging results in way too much power which in the hands of a typical user often ends poorly. Sometimes unexpected things happen, and when you have too much power things fail. I study failure analysis issues all the time, especially speakers and power amps. 30 years of this is revealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gordon Sound Posted September 26, 2009 Members Share Posted September 26, 2009 The big advantage would be if you wanted more monitor mixes or FX sends for out board. The Mix wiz has 6 and the fx16 has 4. The Mix wiz doesnt have the extra 2 submixes( kind of pointless anyways imho) as far as "sound" they are probably on par although the A&H will "feel" more pro IMHO the cheaper soundcrafts/spirits have a cheap "feel" to the faders and knobs, wherease the a&H have a more substantial "feel". But its a personal preferance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stix 518 Posted September 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted September 27, 2009 Thanks guys - I know I kinda hijacked my own thread with the follow-up to AH but I do appreciate the info GS. I know what you mean re.: "feel". The sliders are a bit, oh, chintzy?? Had a Yamaha EMX 5014 prior to this and it had a nice, solid feel to it as well. Oh well, it's not so much how it feels but how it sounds and frankly, we do like the way this board "sounds"! Stix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members VanR Posted September 27, 2009 Members Share Posted September 27, 2009 We have a FX16 and I think it's a fine board. Of course if I could get a new MixWix 16 I wouldn't complain either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted September 27, 2009 Members Share Posted September 27, 2009 I don't think that changing the board will do as much for sound as will buying an actual crossover to use between the eq and amps. Most boards sub 5K use basically the same mic pre, the summing busses may be different but basically unless it's a cheap POS they will be very very similar. Crossover is the most important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TimmyP Posted September 27, 2009 Members Share Posted September 27, 2009 The channel EQ of the MixWiz is much better. This can be invaluable when you want to get from "sounds OK" to "sounds pretty good!". The additional aux mixes can be very handy as well. The individual PCB construction makes repairs much easier and thus less expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 28, 2009 Members Share Posted September 28, 2009 I don't think that changing the board will do as much for sound as will buying an actual crossover to use between the eq and amps. Most boards sub 5K use basically the same mic pre, the summing busses may be different but basically unless it's a cheap POS they will be very very similar. Crossover is the most important. I agree. I also caution the op against bridging all those cabinets with those amps. (mains and monitots) That's a lot of power and you may find the limitations of the speakers cause magic smoke to be let out. Especially with the lack of sophistication in the rest of the system. I also suspect that a properly used EQ might help too, way before the other processing would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stix 518 Posted October 2, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 2, 2009 Okay AH... and others. Help me out cuz I obviously am lost in the sauce here. The Carvin 1801 subs are rated at 600 watts program @ 8 ohms and the 1503's are rated at 800 watts program @ 8 ohms. We're using the internal crossover on the subs with the summation that the internal crossover would be matched (whatever that means). The XLS602's are rated at approximately 1600 watts @ 4 ohms. I've read other posts and done some research but I am simply not grasping how I'm overdriving the speakers with what I'm doing. Sincerely, please enlighten me and please, make it so simple a caveman could understand!! If I am overdriving the setup, given the equipment listed, what would be the best or more appropriate way to set-up (without any additional investment). PS, the EQ has a built in, adjustable crossover if that helps. Thanks from this obvious newbie to live sound (although some of my bandmembers have more experience with PA's than I and have made most of these existing recommendations). Stix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 2, 2009 Members Share Posted October 2, 2009 Okay AH... and others. Help me out cuz I obviously am lost in the sauce here. The Carvin 1801 subs are rated at 600 watts program @ 8 ohms and the 1503's are rated at 800 watts program @ 8 ohms. We're using the internal crossover on the subs with the summation that the internal crossover would be matched (whatever that means). The XLS602's are rated at approximately 1600 watts @ 4 ohms. I've read other posts and done some research but I am simply not grasping how I'm overdriving the speakers with what I'm doing. Sincerely, please enlighten me and please, make it so simple a caveman could understand!! If I am overdriving the setup, given the equipment listed, what would be the best or more appropriate way to set-up (without any additional investment). PS, the EQ has a built in, adjustable crossover if that helps. Stix Your tops are 300 watts RMS, your subs are 400 watts RMS. Your monitors are probably rated even less than your tops. Since you are inexperienced, I would suggest staying berween 1x and 1.5x the RMS rating of the speakers. Your 602 amp does about 1600 watts RMS at 4 ohms bridged. With your tops you have a 600 watt RMS power handling. 900 watts RMS at 4 ohms is the largest amp I would recommend, and would be sure that the amp has a limiter that is engaged, along with a high pass filter set at 40-50Hz for those subs. What eq do you have? I would suggest running all your amps in stereo, that will be a pretty close match to the RMS rating of the speaker. If you need more volume that your speakers will deliver undeer these conditions, you need more speaker in addition to more power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stix 518 Posted October 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 3, 2009 Okay AH, now your messin wit me!! RMS? Now, a thousand pardons and forgive me for asking (cuz I really do appreciate your honesty and schooling) but the spec sheet on the 1801 says 800W continuous power and recommended amp 100 to 1200 watts. the 1503 says 600W continuous program power and recommended 100 to 1200 watts (we've changed the plug in panel [cross-over?] on both cabs to the LS-1503 cuz one was broke and they don't make them anymore for the TR1503 - the LS1503 spec sheet says 400w continuous/800w program/1600w peak and recommended amp of 600 to 1200 watts). I believe these numbers are based at 8 ohms. So (and maybe this is where I'm screwing up) with 1600 watts @ 4 ohms (1/2 of the resistance of the sub and cab) doesn't that mean that the subs are getting 800 (at least) and the tops are getting 800 (or what's leftover once the cross-over sends the signal) when they are daisy-chained - taking into account the internal crossover on the sub? Regarding your question, we have a Behringer (I know, the "B" word) FBQ3102. Stix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 3, 2009 Members Share Posted October 3, 2009 There's an error somewhere... you said your tops were TR1503 with a program power of 800 watts program at 8 ohms and the subs were 1801's w/ a program power rating of 600 watts. This pretty closely matches the LS series and the continuous (or "RMS" power) is 1/2 the program power. Now if they are TR cabinets, maybe they are a little higher rated, but IMO that would start getting optimistic. My experience (and my opinion) is that drivers used warrent a real world continuous rating or about 500 watts for the tops and 400-500 watts for the sub. Sure they can be rated for more than this but they won't last as long, noor IMO get all that much louder due to the effects of power compression. So, using 1.5x the continuous rating (or what I feel is a reasonable rating for drivers similar to this), an amp about 700-750 watts at 8 ohms or 1400-1500 watts at 4 ohms is the MAXIMUM I would recommend. I would personally recommend a bit lower, maybe 1200 watts at 4 ohms (which splits the power between the two cabinets). The marketing hype by many manufacturers seems to get in the way of real world experiences, there's nothing wrong with your cabinets but I would caution you to use some common sense and restraint here so thay last a long time. Regarding the "crossover", get a real crossover... the crossover in your eq is only 1/2 of a crossover. There is no high pass filter function so you are sending all the sub information to your tops also causing a hugh hump in the low frequency response of the system as well as potentially overdriving your tops with sub information. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stix 518 Posted October 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 3, 2009 Awesome. Great explanation. I understand completely. Apparently you feel the internal crossover on the subs is insufficient to handle the job. Will definately get a "real" crossover and, although we've been extremely careful on how much we've been pushing the amps/subs/cabs, will try a different configuration once the crossover is obtained. Thank you for the taking the time to explain and not just throw your hands up in the air and claim with exasperation, "Freakin' Newbie!!" Also, Stix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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