Members BigMac5 Posted December 24, 2009 Members Share Posted December 24, 2009 Anybody compared or used both of these DI's? Is the Countrymen worth the difference in price? http://www.audiopile.net/products/DI_Boxes/LDB-101/LDB-101_cutsheet.shtml http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DT85/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 24, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 I have not used the EWI unit. However I know audiopile's reputation and that Agedhorse has given it his thumb's up. So I would be confident the thing works as intended. I absolutely adore the Type 85 for bass guitar. To be honest, I'd get one of each. No matter what, you'll have two reliable DI's in your kit, and nobody has too many DI's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted December 24, 2009 Members Share Posted December 24, 2009 The Type 85 has a higher input impedance (10M) than the LDB-101 (2.2M). So on some sources it'll load differently. Piezo pickups, basically. But the LDB-101 is a good solid DI, sounds good. I'd call it a pro DI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 24, 2009 Members Share Posted December 24, 2009 The Type 85 has a higher input impedance (10M) than the LDB-101 (2.2M). So on some sources it'll load differently. Piezo pickups, basically.But the LDB-101 is a good solid DI, sounds good. I'd call it a pro DI. 2.2M is as high as I personally like. I prefer 1M myself with most pickups and that's close to what I use when I design piezo inputs on our products. I need to check an 85 to see if it's really (still) 10M. The problem is tribo-electric noise from cabling loaded that light... the cable becomes a pickup too due to delta C when moved. It can be a very big problem. I thought the EWI was closer to 1M, I'll have to test. The sound difference is virtually indistinguishable, though the circuit is different. The noise levels are pretty close as well, the EWI is a couple dB noiser but it's not significant for almost all applications I can think of. Both are excellent products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gadget Posted December 24, 2009 Members Share Posted December 24, 2009 I admit I am nowhere in the leagues of many on this board, so my reputation doesn't hold a candle to someone like AH. I have both the EWI and the Countryman, several actually. I like both of them equally and don't distinguish much difference in them at our church with our different bands. Maybe, if the instrument was playing by itself in a completely quiet room, we could discern the difference, but with drums, other acoustic instruments, choir and vox, I can't hear any difference. Both are solid winners in my book. If I have the cash, I'll go for the Countryman. I do like how the Type 85 has a nice smooth casing though. I wouldn't buy anything else but these two at this point. However, you could still be a total noob and come out smelling like a rose, just by following Andy's lead. He obviously knows products on a level many of us have no idea what he is talking about. Or if we do, we don't possess the expertise or tools to test them ourselves. Andy is a first class gentleman and someone whose opinion I deeply value. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 24, 2009 Members Share Posted December 24, 2009 I just tested Mark's DI and the input imedance is 1.05M. Perfect tradeoff in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdawg55 Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 I don't have experience with the EWI product, but I own and use 2 of the Type 85 Countryman DI units and I really like them. I use one on keys and one on bass. I may get a passive unit for the keys in the future and move the Countryman to the acoustic guitar, but for now I'm very happy with the results I'm getting with the Type 85 unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 Wonder where Carl came up with the model #85? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 2.2M is as high as I personally like. I prefer 1M myself with most pickups and that's close to what I use when I design piezo inputs on our products. I need to check an 85 to see if it's really (still) 10M. The problem is tribo-electric noise from cabling loaded that light... the cable becomes a pickup too due to delta C when moved. It can be a very big problem.I thought the EWI was closer to 1M, I'll have to test.The sound difference is virtually indistinguishable, though the circuit is different. The noise levels are pretty close as well, the EWI is a couple dB noiser but it's not significant for almost all applications I can think of. Both are excellent products. See once again I learned something here. I always thought that higher impedence was better (of course it requires a higher gain amplifier to give the same resultant output (you gotta admit the model 85 must have an oustanding amplifier stage to remain so quiet)). I have heard cables "ringing" (I take it you mean microphonic - you thump them and you hear the result?). I just always thought it was poor cable design (something to do with the dialectric) but what you say makes sense. I do know that better cables are less likely to do this but if the sonic difference between 1 M and 8 M ohms is negliable then why risk it. If I'm correct, the higher impedence also dictates a shorter maximum cable length. Hmmmm learn something every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 Impedance is independant of gain. Noise voltage is generally more of a problem with high source impedances, as well as RFI and electrostatic coupling of noise into the circuit. A coax cable has capacitance per foot due to the dielectric material and the spacing of the center conductor within the cylindrical outside "shell". When you tap the cable, you change the capacitance and in effect generate a signal by putting energy into the cable. Why the number 85? Why not 86 or 84? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 See once again I learned something here. I always thought that higher impedence was better Agedhorse and I don't quite agree on this - I believe that there are a fair number of piezo pickups that benefit from the higher input impedance. In my opinion, a "too low" (1-2M or lower) input can make some pickups have a weaker bottom end and nasty sounding mids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 Why the number 85? Why not 86 or 84? The device measures 85mm front-to-back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 Agedhorse and I don't quite agree on this - I believe that there are a fair number of piezo pickups that benefit from the higher input impedance. In my opinion, a "too low" (1-2M or lower) input can make some pickups have a weaker bottom end and nasty sounding mids. There are indeed some, but very few IME. I spent quite a few years deveoping pickups as well as preamps, and I have made test preamps with variable input impedances. In general, the sweetspot (between noise, response, damping, and tribo-electric effect) keeps returning me to 1M as the point of diminishing returns. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I don't design to the exceptions. Also, these days with active electronics installed in probably 90-95%% of all instruments w/ piezos (good idea because the cable between the preamp and pickup is kept really short), the high input impedance is a moot point, and the benefits of a lower impedance beging to outweigh any drawbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 But there is certainly a market for very high impedance DIs and related products such as "acoustic" pedals and amps. Baggs, Fishman, etc. are all selling products with input impedances in the 5-10M range. There will certainly be tradeoffs with noise and such. But I've run across enough situations where a higher input impedance helped in a fairly obvious way. Of course if there's no change, then no point in spending money on it. I typically carry a couple of homebrew FET impedance buffers to new gigs, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 TRy taking one of your high impedance buffers and modify one with a variable input of say 5M to ground (beware if the input shunt is also used for biasing), and see what the difference is sliding the impedance down. It's an enlightening experiment and if you look at the output noise you will see the noise figure decrease w/ impedance. Also, do this in a high RFI environment and you will see a lower RF component on the output too. Try mechanically tapping the cable at 10M and at 1M and you should hear a dramatic difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 TRy taking one of your high impedance buffers and modify one with a variable input of say 5M to ground (beware if the input shunt is also used for biasing), and see what the difference is sliding the impedance down. It's an enlightening experiment and if you look at the output noise you will see the noise figure decrease w/ impedance. Also, do this in a high RFI environment and you will see a lower RF component on the output too. Try mechanically tapping the cable at 10M and at 1M and you should hear a dramatic difference. My little boxes (built into Altoids tins!) come in at around 5M. 1M is definitely too low, in my experience (but the usual disclaimer that it depends on the pickup). Since loading affects the lower frequencies most and I'm a bass player, I first got into this just trying to make my upright bass pickup sound better. Now if you're designing a product instead of just tweaking things for a live show, you're going to have to balance things more carefully. And if you have the advantage of being able to use piezo elements that are less sensitive to impedance loading, great! Just from doing live shows mostly with acoustic instruments I've seen a very wide variability in loading effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 Loading affects both the lower frequencies as well as the resonances. Try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted December 25, 2009 Members Share Posted December 25, 2009 Death to all cheap cables - We'll call it "Cable Taps" OK I'll Leave now. Happy Holidays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BigMac5 Posted December 26, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 26, 2009 I just tested Mark's DI and the input imedance is 1.05M. Perfect tradeoff in my book.Which DI is Mark's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted December 26, 2009 Members Share Posted December 26, 2009 Which DI is Mark's? He's talking about Mark Hellinger (a very active member here) who sells EWI products. I'll put in my vote of confidence for Mark's products as well. I've done a little business with him and his wife (was it liz?) and was treated very well. As a rule the products he stocks are of very good quality at a very reasonable price (great bang for the buck). EWI Rocks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted December 26, 2009 Members Share Posted December 26, 2009 Which DI is Mark's? I believe Andy (agedhorse) was referencing the EWI LDB-101 active DI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 I believe Andy (agedhorse) was referencing the EWI LDB-101 active DI. Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 27, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted December 27, 2009 Andy, the Type 85 is Karl W's design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 Andy, the Type 85 is Karl W's design? Carl Countryman, a N. CA guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 27, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted December 27, 2009 Carl Countryman, a N. CA guy. Ah, okay. Never met the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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