Members NomadDudeMan Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 at church i play alot. and when i dont i hear the electric guitar it sounds really whiny and compressed and sick. bad=sick.... we have 4 18 subs on the celing pointing down and 2 15 with horns pointing down as well. i know the guitars orriginal tone is verry good. i have done much ear training with tone so i know the source is good. but it does not translate well to the mains... and we do use the norm 57s i think. or is it a 58.... gosh numbers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NomadDudeMan Posted January 18, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 oh ya i forgot i need pro advice. i have already asked non sound guys that think they know how. but they dont.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 How does it sound without the PA, just the guitar amp, while listening out in the house? Just to get a feel for if it's something that the room itself is having trouble with or if it's with the PA itself. Generally, I start all of my PA's with a known flat response, no compression, no effects, no channel eq. Then, I will bring up the guitar and listen before doing anything. On a good, flat PA, a little channel eq is generally all that's required. A 57 should sound fine, maybe try an E-609 or something like that but you should be quite close with a 57 IME. If there's something wrong with the PA or the room acoustics, that will need to be fixed before you are likely to have success with the guitar (and everything else too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members allexcosta Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 i know the guitars orriginal tone is verry good. i have done much ear training with tone so i know the source is good. but it does not translate well to the mains... and we do use the norm 57s i think. or is it a 58.... gosh numbers.. What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 depends how the PA sounds, what the soundman is doing on that guitar channel, and what the rest of the band might be doing sonically to the guitar mix when combined. I'd say the mic, although important, has less to do with the tone. A good mixer, with a good tone coming from the amp, can make it sound sweet. now, just because you think your tone is fantastic to your ears, that doesn't mean the mic does..Mic positioning has a little to do with it. if the 57 isn't working, chances are it's probably your tone isn't as amazing as you think or the above mentioned stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 Let us know what mains you are using too. A 57 (or 58 for that matter) mic on a good gtr rig into a decent PA will require little to no eq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 Again, does your PA sound good in general? What is it? If it's the cheapest PA money can buy, then you're probably plain out of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NomadDudeMan Posted January 19, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 How does it sound without the PA, just the guitar amp, while listening out in the house? Just to get a feel for if it's something that the room itself is having trouble with or if it's with the PA itself. Generally, I start all of my PA's with a known flat response, no compression, no effects, no channel eq. Then, I will bring up the guitar and listen before doing anything. On a good, flat PA, a little channel eq is generally all that's required. A 57 should sound fine, maybe try an E-609 or something like that but you should be quite close with a 57 IME. If there's something wrong with the PA or the room acoustics, that will need to be fixed before you are likely to have success with the guitar (and everything else too). the amp without being in the mix sound small and faint... the sound guys make us turn our amps around and make us turn down to like really soft. so without being in the main mix. our room has some eco problems to a small extent... but nothing major. our system sounds faint all the time tho... could it be the speakers? cus everything pretty much sounds muddy and dim. and like there is no power behind the mix... i dunno. thanks for the advice tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NomadDudeMan Posted January 19, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 Again, does your PA sound good in general? What is it? If it's the cheapest PA money can buy, then you're probably plain out of luck. Actually the speakers are supposibly from england. So they are verry expensive. but not that great sounding in my oppinion. a large soundcraft mixer. i think... soundcraft... hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 if your PA speakers are pointing straight down that will sound faint and thin. eq will not help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 Sounds like you have the mic pointing at the center of the speaker. Put the mic up against the grille, perpendicular to the baffle, and point it at a spot maybe one or two inches from the edge of the speaker. You'll get a much more natural sound with the mic pointing near the edge of the speaker than you would pointing it right at the middle... or the "ice pick zone". A quality mic that's positioned properly on a good sounding guitar amp should not need EQ, or much of it anyways. maybe some low end cut and some light boost at 1k but that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 I have a feeling that the guitars might have the mids scooped out at the amp if they already sound thin before even going through the PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 Oooooh, it's from England and it's expensive, therefore it must be good? England has a history (or a culture) of making some of the worst electronics and other things too. Maybe you got some of their less than outstanding attempts? Really need more information regarding the PA. I suspect that you have multiple issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 If it sounds faint and thin to begin with - being a church (which is my sound engineering background) the first thing that comes to mind is "are the sound people just deliberately turning it down". How much do you know about what is going on at mix level? And secondly, as has already been alluded to, is the system possibly just underpowered? What does it sound like when you play a CD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 and like there is no power behind the mix... i dunno. thanks for the advice tho. Obviously I'm missing something. If your system sounds "muddy and dim", why would the guitars fare any better? It would seem that if you fixed your system, you wouldn't need to fix your guitars - maybe they're just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Flogger59 Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 The only quick and dirty idea that I have would be to low shelf at 500hz and cut 6-10db. Electric guitars that are close mic'ed with dynamics tend to get an overload of proximity effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 Oooooh, it's from England and it's expensive, therefore it must be good?England has a history (or a culture) of making some of the worst electronics and other things too. Maybe you got some of their less than outstanding attempts?Really need more information regarding the PA. I suspect that you have multiple issues. Sounds like a blanket statement that you/we generally jump on people for making......:poke: I've been perfectly happy with all the Allen & Heath products I've ever used. Maybe they're not top of the line, but they're far from the "worst". And for the OP, trying moving the mic around as suggested and maybe try bypassing the system EQ. Wouldn't be the first time that a system sounded better without all the "tweeks" that have been piled on over time.The only channel adjustments I tend to make on electric guitar are using the HPF and sometimes taking out some 4k-ish when the amp is pointed at their knees. Winston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members whiteop Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 since I play live at church through a PA I'll try and give you a few pointers that I've had to learn the hard way. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members whiteop Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 Sounds like you have the mic pointing at the center of the speaker. Put the mic up against the grille, perpendicular to the baffle, and point it at a spot maybe one or two inches from the edge of the speaker. You'll get a much more natural sound with the mic pointing near the edge of the speaker than you would pointing it right at the middle... or the "ice pick zone".A quality mic that's positioned properly on a good sounding guitar amp should not need EQ, or much of it anyways. maybe some low end cut and some light boost at 1k but that's it. forgot about the mic positioning if you're using a mic. This guy's right. Place the mic at the edge of the speaker or you will get the ice pick of death sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry007 Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 England has a history (or a culture) of making some of the worst electronics and other things too. Is it possible that this came out wrong? Perhaps "England is just as likely as anyone else to churn out complete crap..." is what was meant, or is there more to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 or is there more to it?England is the home of Lucas - the Prince of Darkness . I had a great manual for restoring Triumph motorcycles - first page said "first remove everything that says 'Lucas' on it and throw it all away." No BS - it really did : http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html "The three position Lucas switch - Dim, Flicker and Off." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 19, 2010 Members Share Posted January 19, 2010 Is it possible that this came out wrong? Perhaps "England is just as likely as anyone else to churn out complete crap..." is what was meant, or is there more to it? Nope, it came out exactly like I ment it. See my response above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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