Powered speaker volume

[Jersey Jack]

A quick question: Isn't the best practice in most situations to turn the volume knob all the way to max on powered speakers? Volume should be controlled at the board, not limited at the speakers, right?

 

I'm not even sure why powered cabs have volume controls. What am I missing?

[Telecruiser]

I believe you have it backwards but I will let someone who has more knowledge address it. I do just the opposite. I get the mic gain set, the channel volume to it highest for the mix and the master outputs faders as high as I can and adjust the final volume with the amp in the cab allowing a little extra just in case. I think of it as a water hose with three or four valves in it. I would open all of the valves as much as I can and control the final output with the last valve.

[agedhorse]

Generally, you will get the best results (without the possibility of overdriving the pre-gain control on the powered speaker input) by running the speaker's control around the nominal "0dB" or whatever the manufacturer determines the nominal position. You can turn down some but IF you run way down, it's possible that you would overdrive either the drive electronics (mixer, eq, DSP) or the input stage of the speaker (before the control) as some have a lower maximum input level than you might expect. Without calculating all of the gain structure (including headroom for speaker limiting to take place as needed), the safe choice is nominal "0dB".

[Mutha Goose]

I set mine so that, on average, the clip light on my mixer comes on a little before my speakers clip.

[Zeromus-X]

 

I think of it as a water hose with three or four valves in it. I would open all of the valves as much as I can and control the final output with the last valve.

 

 

That seems like an awful way to deal with that situation. I'd open all the valves as much as I can and control the final output with whichever valve is closest to where I'd like to be sitting while I watch the garden.

 

Likewise, I wouldn't want to run up to four powered speakers and turn them down a little when the club owner complains about volume, so I run them at 0dB on the markings on the back, and control everything from the mix position.

[GCDEF]

 

I believe you have it backwards but I will let someone who has more knowledge address it. I do just the opposite. I get the mic gain set, the channel volume to it highest for the mix and the master outputs faders as high as I can and adjust the final volume with the amp in the cab allowing a little extra just in case. I think of it as a water hose with three or four valves in it. I would open all of the valves as much as I can and control the final output with the last valve.

 

 

So if you need to adjust the level during the show, you run up to both speakers and adjust the volume there? That's not really the best plan. If you have subs, you have even more places you'd have to go to set the level. As said, there should be a nominal setting marked on the speaker's volume knob. That's a good place to start, then use the master faders on the mixer to adjust the overall level. That's what they're for.

[Louis Schwartz]

A related question: there's no nominal or "0db" mark on the volume control of the RCF 312a, only a "-[infinity]" sign at the minimum and "MAX" at the maximum, but in the photo of the back panel that is printed in the manual you can see the legend, "Set volume to Max for Remote Control" printed next to the knob (no such legend appears on my actual speaker). I don't know what's up with the discrepancy about the legend, but I assume from what's been said so far here that this means that "MAX" is the manufacturer's recommended nominal setting.

 

Does that seem right?

 

FWIW in practice, I haven't noticed much difference in sound between setting the volume on the mixer at nominal and using the volume on the speaker to find the right level (in situations in which the speaker has been within easy reach) or setting the volume on the speaker at MAX and using the mixer to control the level. But I haven't had to use anything like the full volume of the thing yet at a gig or rehearsal. Anyway, it would be useful to hear from others about using the RCF.

 

Louis

[Shaster]

 

A quick question: Isn't the best practice in most situations to turn the volume knob all the way to max on powered speakers? Volume should be controlled at the board, not limited at the speakers, right? I'm not even sure why powered cabs have volume controls. What am I missing?

 

 

If for some strange reason your input source is lower than it should be, being able to turn up the attenuators on the powered speakers is handy. OTOH if your signal is too strong, being able to back down the powered speaker volume is also handy. Note that in the above examples those situations aren't optimal; but in the real world of amateur and "almost" pro, anything can happen.

 

For the most part as stated, run your powered speakers at the "0dB" or detent position on the attenuator/volume pot.

 

For instance, with a resonably set mix, the Yorkville NX55P's like to be run at their detent position which is 12 o'clock. More than that seems to get counter porductive.

 

The only cabs that I can think of off hand that like to be run WFO are the Yorkville YX15P's and the Yorkville NX25P's. - I've owned both.

 

I believe the YX15P manual actually suggests running them on full.

[BillESC]

Most manufacturers suggest setting the level at 0dB as Agedhorse stated. On the EV SxA250's for example, all the way clockwise is 0dB. I would think this is the same as the infinity setting on the RCF's.

[SpaceNorman]

 

....That's a good place to start, then use the master faders on the mixer to adjust the overall level. That's what they're for.

 

 

I use somewhat of a blended approach. All too often - if I set the gain knobs on my amplifiers (QSC RMX2450's) to the "full open" position - and then set the gain on key channel strips (i.e., lead vocals) somewhere near the "unity" mark - I can barely crack the Master volume on my mixer (an A&H MixWiz) and still be volume appropriate for the room.

 

When I find myself in that situation - I back off the gain at the amps so that I can bring up the Master faders to the "-10" mark and be near where I estimate will be the maximum volume that the venue will handle.

 

While I can't cite a scientific justification for why - I do it this way because I can't help but think that throttling back the Master Output of the board too drastrically (i.e., running it in the -30/-25 range) while leaving the gain on the amps at "wide open" just isn't a good balance. Something about trying to set the gain so that all the components get to run as close to "unity" as the room will permit just seems right to me.

 

Is there such a thing as feng shui when setting up a system gain structure?

[RoadRanger]

Some of my powered speakers don't have a mic/line switch so need the attenuator set to 12 or 1 o'clock. Those that can be switched to line I set fully clockwise just like I do my power amps to minimize the chance of the mixer clipping. YMMV, Void where prohibited, etc .

[abzurd]

 

" sign at the minimum and "MAX" at the maximum, but in the photo of the back panel that is printed in the manual you can see the legend, "Set volume to Max for Remote Control" printed next to the knob (no such legend appears on my actual speaker). I don't know what's up with the discrepancy about the legend, but I assume from what's been said so far here that this means that "MAX" is the manufacturer's recommended nominal setting. Does that seem right? FWIW in practice, I haven't noticed much difference in sound between setting the volume on the mixer at nominal and using the volume on the speaker to find the right level (in situations in which the speaker has been within easy reach) or setting the volume on the speaker at MAX and using the mixer to control the level. But I haven't had to use anything like the full volume of the thing yet at a gig or rehearsal. Anyway, it would be useful to hear from others about using the RCF. Louis

 

 

The discrepancy is because, as a cost cutting measure, RCF removed the remote control functionality in the latest versions of the 31X series speakers. This is a large part of why the price tag has dropped. It was an expensive feature that very few people were using. I got this straight from RCF USA.

 

As for volume, the way I do it is I take the mixer up to just under clip then move to the speakers and set the volume as loud as I'd possibly need it, which would be somewhere before clip. I've done this enough that I don't really do it every gig anymore. For my 522A's it's 12 o clock. For my 310A's as mains about 2/3 to 3/4 up.

[Zeromus-X]

 

The discrepancy is because, as a cost cutting measure, RCF removed the remote control functionality in the latest versions of the 31X series speakers. This is a large part of why the price tag has dropped. It was an expensive feature that very few people were using. I got this straight from RCF USA. As for volume, the way I do it is I take the mixer up to just under clip then move to the speakers and set the volume as loud as I'd possibly need it, which would be somewhere before clip. I've done this enough that I don't really do it every gig anymore. For my 522A's it's 12 o clock. For my 310A's as mains about 2/3 to 3/4 up.

 

 

But how do you know how loud you'll "possibly need it"? You set your levels, get everything comfortable, and then you find out you're running sound for a female-fronted band with a very light voice and guitarists who all run direct. Now you need to either crank the channels on your board just to get enough volume for the crowd that showed up, or you've got to adjust the level on all your speakers?

[Louis Schwartz]

 

The discrepancy is because, as a cost cutting measure, RCF removed the remote control functionality in the latest versions of the 31X series speakers. This is a large part of why the price tag has dropped. It was an expensive feature that very few people were using. I got this straight from RCF USA. As for volume, the way I do it is I take the mixer up to just under clip then move to the speakers and set the volume as loud as I'd possibly need it, which would be somewhere before clip. I've done this enough that I don't really do it every gig anymore. For my 522A's it's 12 o clock. For my 310A's as mains about 2/3 to 3/4 up.

 

 

Thanks. This makes a lot of sense to me. In fact, this past Friday I did almost exactly what you describe here, although it was the feedback threshold that was my top volume marker, rather than the clip light. I ended up with the speaker volume at about 2/3 with the board's output at nominal. This was more volume than I needed, but by the time I figured that out, I was already set up at the other end of the stage and too far from the speaker to adjust it there. Turning down a little at the board, which was set up right behind me, brought it to exactly right for the room. Sounded pretty damn good, too!

 

One question: Was this "remote control" function for an actual remote control, rather than a setting for "volume control from the board?"

 

Louis

[agedhorse]

 

Most manufacturers suggest setting the level at 0dB as Agedhorse stated. On the EV SxA250's for example, all the way clockwise is 0dB. I would think this is the same as the infinity setting on the RCF's.

 

 

This is my expectation.

[abzurd]

 

But how do you know how loud you'll "possibly need it"? You set your levels, get everything comfortable, and then you find out you're running sound for a female-fronted band with a very light voice and guitarists who all run direct. Now you need to either crank the channels on your board just to get enough volume for the crowd that showed up, or you've got to adjust the level on all your speakers?

 

 

Because I don't run sound for any other bands, just ours and it's from stage. I left one part out though. Once and I while I will want it a bit louder. The mixer has an output attenuator on the back. I have it up about 2/3. If I need more I can boost it there. Then I'll take a quick peak at the subs to see if they are at clip. If so it's due to the kick so I'll drop the 62Hz a couple dB and that usually takes care of it. At that point I'm pretty much at the limit of the system. If I know I'm going to need more, like a larger outdoor gig, I'll double up the FOH.

[abzurd]

 

One question: Was this "remote control" function for an actual remote control, rather than a setting for "volume control from the board?" Louis

 

 

Yes, an infrared remote, which was optional.

[Louis Schwartz]

 

Most manufacturers suggest setting the level at 0dB as Agedhorse stated. On the EV SxA250's for example, all the way clockwise is 0dB. I would think this is the same as the infinity setting on the RCF's.

 

 

Just so I'm clear: the full clockwise setting on the RCF 312a is "Max." The full counterclockwise is "minus infinity" [a minus sign and an infinity sign]. So, the "max," setting should be 0db, yes?

 

Louis

[RoadRanger]

. So, the "max," setting should be 0db, yes?

Close enough . Make sure the switches are in the "line" position - my 310A's came with them in the "mic" position which made for a bit of fun when I powered them up for the first time at a gig .

[abzurd]

 

. So, the "max," setting should be 0db, yes? Louis

 

 

This would be a bad assumption. The labeling just says "Max", which is pretty silly. The manual is of no help either. My guess is 0dB is somewhere between the infinity sign and Max and not at the Max position. If I ran my 522A's at "Max" I'd have to have little control at the mixer as a small master fader adjustment would be make big difference. I'd probably only have the master up 1/4" of the way. If you run subs you also have that variable to take into account. For instance, on my RCF subs, I do have to run them up all the way, but they are only balanced with the 522A's at 12 o clock. Any more than that and the subs are overpowered.

[RoadRanger]

No prob here running the 310A's wide open but I do use a crossover to balance out the tops and subs. If I was running an all active setup using the built-in crosovers in the tops and/or subs I'd probably have to back off the tops to match the subs like abzurd. I most commonly run the mixer's master at -10db or less. If I "run out of rig" and need to push into the speaker's or amp's limiters a bit I don't have to worry about anything clipping. I've not had any issues with system "hiss" or such with any of the crossovers or FOH EQ's I've used whether 'ringer, DBX, or Rane.

[dboomer]

So this is a simple "gain structure" issue and we keep going around and around about it. Once you understand how gain structure woirks you can make decisions plus or minus to better suit your application.

 

Let's start here ... If you can get your system loud enough (either full output or however much less than that you might need), without distortion AND you are not bothered by background hiss, you can leave the room now. If your system is not big/loud enough for the application then that is a different matter altogether.

 

So not to single out SpaceNorman but just as an example; in his post above he seems to be happy with the way his system works. Is it the best it could be, probably not. But if he's happy then I'm happy:lol:

 

Lets just consider a system with a mixer, a power amp and a speaker (could be built-in as well). Assuming good practices in setting channel trims, eq, etc, let's take your killer mixed show and send it out the main outs. The idea is to get it as hot (in the main outs)as possible without ever clipping the output. By doing this the mixer will be as quiet wrt background noise and hiss as it can be. If you are dealing with live music how can you know what's coming next so it's probably a good idea to allow a little extra margin (headroom) just to be safe. How much depends on how in control of the situation you are and how much risk you might be willing to take. Is somebody gonna pull a plug while you are cranked? That's gonna hurt unless you have the proper limiting in place (which is outside this discussion).

 

So now that you have established a peak possible output from your mixer you adjust the sensitivity knobs of your power amp so that when the mixer is at this absolute max the power amp is just barely driven to full power output ... wherever that is on the knob (that's why knobs move). Stop think about terms like "0 dB" and "unity". They don't mean much unless you have had your system calibrated. This method will give the most "hi-fi" sound possible and the lowest background noise. In a rock show background noise is usually not a big issue ... in a quiet church service it may be.

 

Now another possibility (if your amp has limiting) is that you adjust the sensitivity knobs of the amp so that the amp is driven to full power a few dB lower than above. Now when you drive your mixer to it's max you will be compressing the overall signal a bit and raise the overall average level by this amount. How far should you go? Well at some point this begins to sound like crap and it begins to heat up drivers more. For me I'd recommend 3-6 dB. Believe it or not this is a common practice at pro rock shows where an additional 6 dB of average level would mean bringing another simi full of gear.

 

All of this does not consider speaker protection (which is pretty much automatic with self powered speakers) or how big your power amps should be for your speakers. I'm assuming that you have perfectly defined that

[RoadRanger]

Now when you drive your mixer to it's max you will be compressing the overall signal a bit and raise the overall average level by this amount. How far should you go? Well at some point this begins to sound like crap and it begins to heat up drivers more. For me I'd recommend 3-6 dB.

Yup, IME that's about when it starts getting audible and/or stops gettin' louder.

[abzurd]

Driving everything to "as loud as it can go" doesn't always work as an end result. If you've brought enough rig for the gig and do this throughout the chain then you could easily be blowing people out of the room. You have to pad it down somewhere in the chain. That's why I do it the way I do it, which is essentially the same thing, but I leave the headroom at the amp, which just happen to live in the speakers. If I were doing bands I wasn't familiar with I'd leave more headroom in the mixer.

[twostone]

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