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  • #16
    Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post

    I am really on the fence on the amp itself. I generally carry either a Bogner XTC or Marshall 3203 to gigs, run through a Two Notes Torpedo Live cabinet emulator, so it's a bit of a hybrid analog/digital system. I still carry the tube head, but not the cabinet. I hate dealing with the weight and size of the tube heads, but I just haven't found any digital amp that I like the sound of, aside from the Kemper.....and it's a bit on the expensive side.
    I really like the Yamaha DG series of amplifiers. It's 20th century technology but still the most organic feeling digital amp I have ever used. I often get the "I cant believe that doesn't have tubes in it" comments when people hear it for the first time.

    The downside is that, like a tube amp, they are rather heavy (perhaps that's part of the emulation - carrying it up a flight of stairs creates a certain expectation) My 80 Watt single 12 version weighs about 25Kg (a little over 55lbs US) If you get a chance, try one out.


    Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post
    One thing I have found, though, is that doing away with the cabinet has given me much better control over stage volume. Running all my stuff through a wedge monitor aimed directly at me from downstage makes the guitar nearly inaudible to the rest of the group aside from whatever they want in their monitors, unlike an open-back amp that bleeds all over the stage. It also lets me dial in my sound on the exact same feed that the FOH tech gets. If I need more volume or wider coverage (outdoor stages), I just add a second wedge coming from the side or upstage. This also lets me run my acoustic instruments and vocal mic through the same monitor cabinet, which cleans up the stage and generally makes life easier.....which is where the XR12 was supposed to come in.
    That's probably ideal for the kind of stuff you are doing - especially the show gigs where you are in the pit. That way you get to hear what you need and everybody else can get as much, or as little, guitar as they want through the foldback
    Every worm, every insect, every animal is working
    for the ecological wellbeing of the planet.

    Only we humans, who claim to be the most intelligent
    species here, are not doing that. ~Sadhguru

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by onelife View Post

      That's probably ideal for the kind of stuff you are doing - especially the show gigs where you are in the pit. That way you get to hear what you need and everybody else can get as much, or as little, guitar as they want through the foldback
      Absolutely! With a 9-piece horn band, it is very easy to get stage volume out of control - and then nobody is happy, because nobody can hear what they want to.
      Lease this space!

      Comment


      • #18
        Another feature of the DG amplifiers is the motorized knobs. It might seem like a novelty at first - when a patch is recalled from the panel or via MIDI, the analog style knobs move into the position where they were when the patch was saved - but it makes minor adjustments, such as cutting the midrange a bit, obvious, easy and subtle.

        I was talking to a guitar enthusiast friend of mine, who is a mechanical engineer, about the amp. I couldn't figure out why Yamaha discontinued the line after such a short run. His response was that they were too expensive to build and that was because of the motors.

        I was concerned about the motors when I bought the amp but the regional Yamaha rep at the time reassured me that Yamaha had been building products with motorized faders for a long time and that I had nothing to worry about. After twenty years of use, I have not had a single technical issue with the amplifier and I have saved a small fortune in tubes.
        Every worm, every insect, every animal is working
        for the ecological wellbeing of the planet.

        Only we humans, who claim to be the most intelligent
        species here, are not doing that. ~Sadhguru

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post

          As I noted above, an external router isn't an option - I have no space available, and I have no interest in adding more more cables and junk to have to deal with. The reason I got the XR12 in the first place was to try to simplify my rig, and it has ended up making it more complex - a move in the wrong direction.

          Second, I have no way of analyzing the EMI patterns before the gig; this should be obvious, as the seats don't have the patrons in place until the house opens and everyone is seated - and by then it's too late to be diagnosing and making changes. Once the downbeat hits, I need my rig to operate without need for any sort of extra effort until the curtain closes at the end of the show. A mixer needs to act like a mixer without any other input required; while I am fully capable of managing the tech involved, I don't have the time or attention to devote to tweaking during a show. This sort of fiddling around with gear might be acceptable for a crappy neighborhood bar gig, but not for a paying theater job. The cues come at you fast in this sort of show; you don't get second chances, nor can you call a pause while you sort something out..

          Bottom line, I am going back to my position that this thing just isn't suitable for live use in a professional setting.
          I don't know. Set a router on the top of your rack. Plug it in and connect the cat cable. Not that hard.
          As far as a wifi analyzer it looks for other "Routers" in your area and the channels they are using. If there is 3 routers in the club your working in and they are all on channel 3 as an example then if your close to one of them and it has more power than the wifi in your mixer it will interfere with your communication. Just find a free or low use channel and change your router to that channel. Take a look at WIFI Analyzer. Its a free android app.


          https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...lyzer&hl=en_US

          Doug

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Dookietwo View Post
            I don't know. Set a router on the top of your rack. Plug it in and connect the cat cable. Not that hard.
            Have you ever worked in a theater pit?

            Let me be clear. There is not room in my rack and I do not want to have to add more junk to carry and connect. I would rather go back to basic analog than carry more crap. The whole point of this addition was to make my setup smaller, lighter and simpler. It's smaller and lighter, but it doesn't work and is not simpler.

            As far as a wifi analyzer it looks for other "Routers" in your area and the channels they are using. If there is 3 routers in the club your working in and they are all on channel 3 as an example then if your close to one of them and it has more power than the wifi in your mixer it will interfere with your communication. Just find a free or low use channel and change your router to that channel. Take a look at WIFI Analyzer. Its a free android app.
            I don't play clubs exclusively, and the problem isn't other routers.

            Imagine a Broadway-sized theater. Empty and during tech rehearsal, everything works fine. 10 minutes before the house opens, it works fine. 10 minutes after the house opens and a few hundred people are seated, it fails and will not recover. My X32 works fine in the same environment, so it is not a characteristic of routed concoles in general - this one just doesn't work properly in a live performamce environment.

            Once the house opens, I have very limited time to tune, set and prep. I don't have time to screw around with the gear during performance - it needs to work, period. Playing around with a WiFi scanner isn't part of the program - and shouldn't be necessary to begin with.

            I'm sticking with not suitable for pro use.
            Last edited by SteinbergerHack; 06-03-2019, 06:28 PM.
            Lease this space!

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            • #21
              Do you really have to have wireless? Since this is for a guitar rack and your talking a theater pit why not use a cat 5 cable and adapter? I use a Line 6 rack system and from the rack to the control pedal board is a flat Ethernet cable. Its so thin its like its not there. I have an XR18 for our PA, during setup I use the wireless with an iPad. After that I plug in the iPad using an adapter and cable because that always works. What I like about these is you can save where you have been so setup is a breeze. I was reading on Keyboard Corner a guy uses the XR12 to plug all his multiple keyboards into. He has it set and never touches it. He plugs it into his powered speakers for monitoring and provides two XLR lines to the FOH. Seems to me for a guitar rack that's really all you need. A black box for providing multiple ins and outs that wouldn't need ANY adjustments during the gig. I do the same thing but with a rack analog line mixer (Samson). I typically bring two keyboards, an electric guitar, acoustic guitar and bass to my trio gigs.
              Last edited by kbeaumont; 06-04-2019, 07:51 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by kbeaumont View Post
                Do you really have to have wireless? Since this is for a guitar rack and your talking a theater pit why not use a cat 5 cable and adapter?
                Not sure how that works with an Android phone....? Hmmm.....

                I was reading on Keyboard Corner a guy uses the XR12 to plug all his multiple keyboards into. He has it set and never touches it. He plugs it into his powered speakers for monitoring and provides two XLR lines to the FOH. Seems to me for a guitar rack that's really all you need. A black box for providing multiple ins and outs that wouldn't need ANY adjustments during the gig.
                The config is basically what you describe - but the usage isn't.

                Pit gigs involve a bunch of different instruments - typical might be steel-string, nylon-string, electric, and a mandolin, often with very fast swaps. I have to mute the channels for the unused acoustic instruments when they aren't being played so that they don't ring/resonate/feedback, then turn 'em on just before the appropriate cues. Other than that, yes, there is very little "adjustment" going on during the show.
                Last edited by SteinbergerHack; 06-04-2019, 08:09 AM.
                Lease this space!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yes I have played in a pit in Germany though that was in the 90's. I 'm using wireless instead of cables to my instruments. Right now I have 3 Line 6 G10S units that I just turn on and off. They sit on top of the rack. They are cheap and the way I use them I have never had a battery issue. And I use a shure wireless headset mic system. The one thing I hated was multiple cables on the floor. This is what made me go almost completely wireless. And with the headset, I don't need to keep my face in front of a mic. I can turn on the instrument , play. No cables to get tangled. And no feedback because when the instrument is not used the transmitter is off. I like to use a Extended height drum throne type stool. Previously I was always getting cables wrapped around the damn stool. And setup and tear down is dead simple. No wrapping cables! The only cables are on the keyboards.

                  This way I just pickup an instrument turn on its dongle transmitter and play. Works great, since your near the receiver they never drop out and they are digital so no RF interference. There is also an added benefit of not being electrically connected, no hum! If you have ever used single coil pickups you know what I'm talking about, even the best shielded guitars can suffer from it.
                  Last edited by kbeaumont; 06-04-2019, 09:24 AM. Reason: clarity

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                  • #24


                    Your original post is below.
                    I've been mixing more than 32 years.... As with everything in life there is no free ride. If you don't feel ready to move to digital at least you found out without spending a lot more money. Taking the time to learn how to properly use WIFI and using the right equipment isn't rocket science but you should do what of course works for you and your setup. Let us know what you end up with.

                    Kindest Regards
                    Doug

                    Doug

                    ''''''
                    I use a XR12 in my guitar rack to pre-mix all of my various instruments (electric, steel-string, mandolin, etc.). I use my phone to connect to it with the xAir app, which has always worked just fine. I do the same thing with my X32, and have never had a problem with it.
                    Last night, I showed up at the gig and the WiFi refused to connect. After a couple of resets, I finally got the WiFi to connect, but halfway through the app connecting to the console, it disconnected again and refused to reconnect. After multiple rounds of power cycling and resetting to no avail, I finally gave up. Trouble is, I had my mandolin channel muted and had no way to turn it on.
                    The show was sold out, so I assume that there were a lot of devices in the audience...but that's no different than in many previous gigs.
                    Two questions:
                    1) Any idea of the root cause, and is there a way to fix it?
                    2) Does anyone have a work-around? Once the show starts, I cannot dig into the back of the rack and try to make repairs, and without a physical interface I am backed into a corner if I need to make an adjustment. (I do a lot of theater work, so I cannot just stop and take a break or delay the start of the performance.)
                    HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




                    Last edited by Dookietwo; 06-04-2019, 04:35 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dookietwo View Post
                      Your original post is below.
                      I've been mixing more than 32 years
                      So have I - since the early 80s.

                      . If you don't feel ready to move to digital at least you found out without spending a lot more money.
                      You didn't notice that I also have an X32?

                      Taking the time to learn how to properly use WIFI
                      I know how to use WiFi. I've been developing communicating products in my day gig as an electrical engineer since 1990 - and I have a handful of patents to show for it.

                      Don't blame the user for a product that doesn't work properly.
                      Last edited by SteinbergerHack; 06-04-2019, 05:03 PM.
                      Lease this space!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post

                        So have I - since the early 80s.



                        You didn't notice that I also have an X32?



                        I know how to use WiFi. I've been developing communicating products in my day gig as an electrical engineer since 1990 - and I have a handful of patents to show for it.

                        Don't blame the user for a product that doesn't work properly.

                        1. You've been mixing more than 35 years or so. Check
                        2. You have a X32. Check When I said you went to digital I meant for your Sub Mixer and not a lot of money meaning buying a proper Router etc.
                        3. Your an Electrical Engineer for a long time. Check

                        You purchased the Yugo of wireless mixers that everyone on the web has stated here and elsewhere for years that the built in WIFI isn't any good and yet you trusted it for a mission critical job. It sounds like it worked fine for a few gigs yet failed this 1 time (I'm guessing) and now its not a good product. Although I don't have a paper in a frame I've done a few Heath kits and been around electronics for a few years. ;-) There's no way I'd go out with any digital rack mixer and trust its built in WiFi. Common sense and experience wouldn't let me do that. I've been mixing wireless for some time now with yamaha and midas products. No issues. For someone who has been developing communicating products for years and with all your other experience I'm surprised you trusted such a entry level product with known questionable built in WiFi.
                        Sorry you have had bad luck with it. I'm betting if you picked up a external router or better you'd have great luck but I understand that is one more step to frig with and takes up space so its not what your looking for. There is the X32 Rack as I'm sure you know that has accessible controls on front but it is a step up in price. I haven't looked in the used market for one but there may be some at a reasonable price.
                        Regardless now that you have it I'd pick up a low cost router and maybe give it another try in not such a high profile show. You may end up liking it. Also it doesn't sound like you were using every input on the mixer. Maybe setup a few channels for "spares" so if this came up again you could swap channels out. I realize it would be a Hot Swap and you may have to ask the FOH to mute your send for a moment but it may get you through until you picked up a analog sub mixer.

                        Doug

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post
                          I use a XR12 in my guitar rack to pre-mix all of my various instruments (electric, steel-string, mandolin, etc.). I use my phone to connect to it with the xAir app, which has always worked just fine. I do the same thing with my X32, and have never had a problem with it.

                          Last night, I showed up at the gig and the WiFi refused to connect. After a couple of resets, I finally got the WiFi to connect, but halfway through the app connecting to the console, it disconnected again and refused to reconnect. After multiple rounds of power cycling and resetting to no avail, I finally gave up. Trouble is, I had my mandolin channel muted and had no way to turn it on.

                          The show was sold out, so I assume that there were a lot of devices in the audience...but that's no different than in many previous gigs.

                          Two questions:

                          1) Any idea of the root cause, and is there a way to fix it?

                          2) Does anyone have a work-around? Once the show starts, I cannot dig into the back of the rack and try to make repairs, and without a physical interface I am backed into a corner if I need to make an adjustment. (I do a lot of theater work, so I cannot just stop and take a break or delay the start of the performance.)

                          HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                          first, I would send all instruments directly to the main mixer. Get rid of the submixer.

                          Next, if you have an X32 as your main mixer, just use a tablet or phone to control the mix or submix directly through the.X32.

                          Last, the wireless router is the issue with the XR12. The reason the X32 works well is that it is using an external wireless router....it doesn't matter where it was purchased from. A router purchased at Walmart is not good or bad because of where it was bought.

                          For people doing Solo or duo work, tht XR12 is a fine solution with a decent router. Far superior to an analog mixer IMHO.

                          With Greater Knowledge Comes Greater Understanding

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by OneEng View Post

                            first, I would send all instruments directly to the main mixer. Get rid of the submixer.
                            Not an option. Have you ever worked musical theater? I only have one send to the FOH console for all of my instruments, and I have to control my own monitor mix.

                            Next, if you have an X32 as your main mixer, just use a tablet or phone to control the mix or submix directly through the.X32.
                            ​​​​​​
                            Even if I had access to the FOH mixer, I still couldn't do this. The channel setup starts with 20 wireless mics, then the stage mics, pit instrumentation, FX cues, etc. I am allocated one channel for guitar/string toys, period.

                            Last, the wireless router is the issue with the XR12. The reason the X32 works well is that it is using an external wireless router....it doesn't matter where it was purchased from. A router purchased at Walmart is not good or bad because of where it was bought.
                            ​​​​​​
                            True, but the bigger issue is that there is a usable front panel on the X32. Ease-of-use is marginal, but it gives a way to fix something if the WiFi goes out.

                            For people doing Solo or duo work, tht XR12 is a fine solution with a decent router. Far superior to an analog mixer IMHO.
                            Maybe for an open mic night or equivalent playing for 30 people, sure. I am now of the opinion that it simply is not suitable as a professional use device for mid-size and large venues, though.

                            If the first thing you say is that it needs an external router, why did they put one inside it that doesn't work? IMO, it would be better to leave it out of the product than have a feature that doesn't function in a performance environment. I would not have bought it knowing that the router didn't work - I would have stuck with a simple 8 channel rack analog, because they are reliable.

                            Lease this space!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dookietwo View Post
                              . There is the X32 Rack as I'm sure you know that has accessible controls on front but it is a step up in price.
                              I already have one. Too deep for the rack space I have available, and it lives in my PA rack, not my instrument rack. You are correct, though, that it would work for the intended purpose, just at way more cost, size, weight and complexity than a simple analog rack unit.

                              I realize it would be a Hot Swap and you may have to ask the FOH to mute your send for a moment but it may get you through until you picked up a analog sub mixer.
                              Absolutely not an option. The FOH guy sits in the tech bridge, I'm in the pit, and there is only one break in the show (intermission), during which everyone is full-bore setting for act 2.

                              These are live theater shows, not bar gigs in a "dad band". Everything - EVERYTHING - happens in sync with a predefined set of cues. The entire 2-1/12 or 3 hour show will run within 1 minute of the same length every single night - there is no room for mistakes, miscues, or special requests. If I came in with a request like that, it would be the last theater gig I would play in this area.

                              Have you ever been to a broadway show?
                              Last edited by SteinbergerHack; 06-16-2019, 04:04 PM.
                              Lease this space!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The XR12 has an ethernet port on the front; can you not use a wired interface, such as a lightning to ethernet adapter?
                                Eschew Obfuscation.

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