Backing Track, Click-Track, In-Ears ALL AT ONCE?

[KevinTJH]

I'm just about to hit the stage again with my band with a setlist of some hardhitting rock tracks, most of which require a backing track (synths, strings, sound effects etc..). This means having the band speed up even the tiniest bit would completely ruin the entire song.

 

I've been doing a lot of research on affordable solutions but I can't seem to find what I'm looking for.

 

This is what I'm trying to achieve:

 

- Backing track plugged into PA from a device (iPad/iPhone) to be heard through speakers on stage

- Backing track to also be played into Drummer's Stereo In-ears (click-track on 1 ear and backing track on other ear)

 

BONUS:

- Wireless In-ears for all 5 band members (including Drummer) for us all to hear exactly what the Drummer hears

 

 

Does anyone have a solution to this? Unfortunately, I don't have a lot to spend on this so my priority would be to just get something for the drummer.

 

 

Thank you so much in advance!

 

 

My thought on the solution for the track only:

- Import the backing track into a DAW and pan it fully to the Right (or viseversa)

- Create a separate click track and pan it fully to the Left

- Use a Stereo mixer (or some sort) - Drummer will get the Stereo Input; The stage speakers will only get a Mono Input (Right side)

 

 

Would this work?

 

 

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

You've got the right general idea. You need to make a stereo track using your DAW, with the click panned hard to one side, and the music panned hard to the other. The drummer will need to hear both in his / her headphones (or IEMs) while the band should hear only the backing track in their stage monitors (or they could hear both if they wanted to, if they're also using IEMs).

 

The mixing board needs to have a pair of mono pre-fader aux sends. You feed the device you're using to play back the stereo mix you created in your DAW into the two mono pre-fader aux sends... route the output of those two aux sends to the drummer's IEMs / headphones. Using two separate mono pre-fader aux sends lets you control the level of the click independently of the backing track level in the headphones, which the drummer will appreciate. For the rest of the band, just route the pre-fader aux send with the music to their monitors and don't send the click to them unless they're using IEMs too and ask to hear it.

 

[KevinTJH]

Thanks so much for your reply, Phil.

 

Don't mean to trouble you at all, but is there any chance you could specify what products, in particular, I would need to get to pull this off?

 

I've been watching lots of tutorials on IEM for bands that recommend getting Headphone Amplifiers with multiple inputs. That's good and all, but how would we have the backing track (without the click) to play simultaneously on the stage monitors?

 

Let's just assume that the PA System/Mixing Desk is located in its common spot, on the opposite side of the room from the stage. How should we go about doing this?

 

I am also absolutely frustrated that the only Headphone Amplifiers I can find are 4-channel ones (we have 5 members including myself):

https://www.rubbermonkey.com.au/Musi...Headphone-Amps

 

Otherwise, it goes on to 8-channels and up, which are costly.

 

I'm assuming I will need this too right?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000068O3C..._EEOByb4W8FY2C

 

 

Alternatively, would this be the simple solution?

I have used a Mixer before but I've never really done much with it. I really don't quite understand how this works so please correct me if I'm wrong with this assumption:

1) I would be using a Y-splitter (white & red) to 1/8 lead to go into the IN on the 2-TRACK Inputs to play my hard-panned backing&click track from my audio device

2) The Drummer would then have his stereo earphones plugged into the 1/4 PHONES Input above the LINE IN 5/6.

3) A separate cable would be plugged into the R Output on the CTRL ROOM OUT (this is assuming I have the backing track hard panned to the Right).

4) The PHONES/CONTROL ROOM knob controls the volume of both the Drummers earphones and what will be fed into the Soundguy's mixing desk.

 

Is this correct?

 

[Shaster]

My thoughts.... what you are attempting isn't difficult, but it can get complicated and convoluted, especially if you have limited sound knowledge and a limited budget.

 

IMHO the easiest solution would to go get a digital mixer that has all the auxes that you need. An analog mixer with six to eight auxes would also work, but would be large, probably too large. Every once in awhile I use a Behringer X32R. It has everything you would need and much much more, but the learning curve might just be too great.

 

If your budget and knowledge are a little limited, you might consider having the sounds go to your drummer first (with a small mixer) then taking just the music from his mixer to yours, and then on to your headphone amp.

 

Anyway, if you're somewhat of a computer geek, maybe the digital mixer route would work for you.

 

Or... you could just hire a keyboard player:)

[KevinTJH]

If your budget and knowledge are a little limited, you might consider having the sounds go to your drummer first (with a small mixer) then taking just the music from his mixer to yours, and then on to your headphone amp.

Do you think the Behringer Xenyx 1002 (as above) would do the trick?

I mean all I would really need is to feed the Click-track and Backing track to the drummer's In-Ears, and the Backing track to the stage monitors simultaneously...

If the drummer plays in time, that should ideally carry forward with the rest of the band (assuming we're not absolutely rubbish at our instruments).

 

 

Okay, one more question to yet another solution:

[img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i1189.photobucket.com\/albums\/z437\/KevinTJH\/81xBZh9k7LL._SX522__zpsw8acsvgp.jpg"}[/img2]

[img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i1189.photobucket.com\/albums\/z437\/KevinTJH\/71D6D69NpjL._SL1500__zpshe288yim.jpg"}[/img2]

[img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i1189.photobucket.com\/albums\/z437\/KevinTJH\/61f3qetcu5L._SL1500__zpsapgtq85n.jpg"}[/img2]

 

What if I did a chain like:

iPad > Behringer Input > The Headphone Outputs are split into 2 (2 musicians each) - One of the Headphone Outputs will get the Stereo Breakout Cable (The one with backing track to go to Stage Monitors, and the one with the Click-track will just be unused).

 

Would this work??

 

 

On top of that, would adding something like this over this setup make it wireless for everyone?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Headphones-Transmitter-Receiver-Stereo-Music-Audio-Adapter-Wireless-Bluetooth/232944638910?epid=15024312058&hash=item363c951bbe:rk:1:pf:0

[Phil O'Keefe]

What are you using for your band's main PA mixer?

 

 

[KevinTJH]

What are you using for your band's main PA mixer?

 

Just picked up these 2.

 

I'm thinking the iPad (with the track) could be just fed through one of the Inputs.

[img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i1189.photobucket.com\/albums\/z437\/KevinTJH\/CDAEACE5-5566-4BCC-A7E7-08DCBACFB5EC_zpsgbkewyo8.jpg"}[/img2]

 

In terms of Outputs, here are my thought:

 

- Drummer will get PHONES - his Earphones (Stereo)

- The other 4 members (including myself) will get the MONITOR OUT - Mono (1 side only) > Behringer Headphone Amp > 4x Earphones

- The PA guy/main PA mixer for the venue will get the STEREO OUT - Mono (1 side only) > Main Mixer

 

In this case, only the drummer will get the Stereo Track (clicktrack + backing track), the remaining 4 band members and the Stage Monitors will only get the Mono track.

 

 

 

Would this work?

[Phil O'Keefe]

A Yamaha MG10 doesn't have enough aux sends for what you want to do. You need a mixing board with at least two mono pre-fader aux (or monitor) sends. I'm not sure if it's pre or post, but the Yamaha you pictured only has one aux send on it.

 

Think of aux sends as mixers within a mixer. Each separate one gives you the ability to do another, separate mix - in this case, those mixes are going to be routed to the two different sets of monitors - one (with the music and the click) will go to the drummer, and another (with just the music, but no click) will go to the rest of the band. The third "mix" - the main mix for the audience, is also separate, and goes to the main PA speakers.

 

You're thinking along the right lines re: feeding the output of an iPad or iPhone into two of the mixer's input channels, but the board you're talking about doesn't have enough aux sends to get separate cue / monitor mixes to the drummer and band.

 

[hfc7713]

I run backing tracks in a very simple manner. My mixer is a Allen & Heath QU-PAC which has 4 mono aux outs and 3 stereo ( 7 if I use the D snake).

I use the DAW to separate backing to right and click to left and download to an iPod.

I take a 3.5mm trs from the iPod to TS left and TS right into 2 separate channels on the board - channel 12 and 13.

 

I send channel 12 (click) and channel 13 (backing) to the drummers iem.

I send only channel 13 to FOH and everyones elses monitor mixes.

 

Drummer uses a Behtringer P1.

 

https://ad.atdmt.com/s/go;adv=112722...RoC6zAQAvD_BwE

 

One more thing.... I have used the Behringer MA400 in the past - similar to the HA400 but mic and line input only. The sound quality was bad so I switched to the P1 which is far superior.

[KevinTJH]

A Yamaha MG10 doesn't have enough aux sends for what you want to do. You need a mixing board with at least two mono pre-fader aux (or monitor) sends. I'm not sure if it's pre or post, but the Yamaha you pictured only has one aux send on it.

 

Think of aux sends as mixers within a mixer. Each separate one gives you the ability to do another, separate mix - in this case, those mixes are going to be routed to the two different sets of monitors - one (with the music and the click) will go to the drummer, and another (with just the music, but no click) will go to the rest of the band. The third "mix" - the main mix for the audience, is also separate, and goes to the main PA speakers.

In this case, I must've picked up the wrong product. However, I can still return this mixer for a different one.

 

Would the MG12 do the trick then? It essentially has 2x AUX SEND's and 2x GROUP OUT (though I haven't researched enough as to what those are)

https://www.storedj.com.au/yamaha-mg12-12-input-mixer?gclid=CjwKCAjwgabeBRBuEiwACD4R5icaZfLZp7urJ0WHfc1c9DdDPrNaBAdE0f2z2hsaGatmZTqJYVc00RoCZM0QAvD_BwE

 

Or the MG16, which essentially has 4x AUX SEND's. Though it seems a bit excessive to get a mixer of that capacity simply for the purpose of In-Ear monitoring.

https://www.bigmusicshop.com.au/yamaha-mg16-16-channel-mixer.html

 

Another question is, are AUX SEND's meant to be stereo too? I tested mine out and for some odd reason, it only comes out on one side of my earphones.

 

This is probably a very silly question to ask, but would the main PA be fed through one side of the MONITOR OUT or STEREO OUT? For some odd reason the STEREO OUT sounds a little lacking in volume and bass in comparison to the MONITOR OUT.

 

 

 

I run backing tracks in a very simple manner. My mixer is a Allen & Heath QU-PAC which has 4 mono aux outs and 3 stereo ( 7 if I use the D snake).

I use the DAW to separate backing to right and click to left and download to an iPod.

I take a 3.5mm trs from the iPod to TS left and TS right into 2 separate channels on the board - channel 12 and 13.

That sounds like a sweet setup! Just googled your mixer and that's way over my budget at this stage unfortunately.

[Phil O'Keefe]

No, the MG12 won't work properly for this either. While it does have two aux sends (a requirement for what you're trying to do), only one of them is of the correct type. According to the Sweetwater page for that product:

 

• Aux Sends:1 x Pre/Post, 1 x Post
  

 

You need two pre-fader aux sends. That board only has one that can be set as a pre-fader send.

 

The MG16 appears to have four aux sends, and at least two of them are either pre-set or can be user-set as pre-fader sends.

 

As to your "stereo" question, while there are some boards with stereo aux sends on them, the vast majority of aux sends are mono, not stereo. You'd want to use a splitter cable to route the aux out to both the left and right inputs for your stereo headphone amp.

 

Your mixing board needs to be large enough to mix the whole band with - at least anything that you want to amplify through the main PA system and / or monitor through the cue / monitoring system. It's not "just" for the headphone / monitoring system. You can use it just for that while using a second board for the main PA / FOH mix, but that is a much more complicated system / setup requiring mic splitters and / or multiple channel feeds from the main (FOH) board to the monitor mixer.

 

Feed the main (front of house) PA system (amps / speakers) with the board's main / stereo outputs, and use the pre-fade aux sends to feed the monitors / headphones / IEMs.

[Phil O'Keefe]

How many people are in your band? What instruments (gtr, bass, drums, keyboards, etc.) are being played live? And how many vocalists / backing vocalists do you have?

 

Taking a hypothetical band with two guitarists, a drummer and a bass player, and assuming three people need vocal mics, and assuming the band wanted to use some backing tracks to play along with live, and using a Yamaha MG16XU mixer, I'd probably go with the following setup:

 

Vocal mics on inputs 1-3

Mics on Gtr amps 1/2 (or direct outs from the amps) on inputs 4-5

Bass DI (or mic) on input 6

Kick mic on input 7

Snare mic on input 8

Drum overheads (two mics) on inputs 9/10 and 11/12 (using the mic inputs, and ignoring the fact that those channels could be used for stereo line inputs instead)

Your stereo playback device (CD player, iPad, etc.) on line inputs 13-14

 

That leaves you one more stereo line input (15-16) for live keyboards, if you need it.

 

You can organize the channels in any way you prefer, but that example is just to show you where the capabilities and limitations of a MG16XU are - you won't have enough channels to, for example, mic the toms on the drum kit too - not unless you only have one singer and one guitarist, and don't need two extra mics for other vocalists or a second guitar mic. If the band is larger and you need more mic inputs to handle everything, there are other mixer options in a similar price range (okay, a bit more expensive...) with enough pre-fader aux sends to do what you want, such as the Mackie ProFX22 V2 and the Yamaha MG20XU.

 

The mixing board's main outputs would be routed to your amps and main PA speakers (or to two input channels on the venue's main mixing board - although that approach would require the willingness of their soundperson to do the mix on your mixing board, which some venues may balk at), while the two pre-fader aux sends would be used to feed the cue mix to the band - with one pre-fader aux send's output being sent to the drummer's headphones, and the other being sent to the band's stage monitors. That way, the drummer alone can be fed the click track (and whatever else they want to hear in their monitor mix), and will be the only one who is hearing that click (in his / her headphones) while the band gets a second monitor / cue mix sans click.

 

You'd still have two POST-fader aux sends available on the MG16XU. These could be used for effects such as reverb or delay - one effects processor is built in on the MG16XU and MG20XU Yamaha boards, and you could patch in a second, outboard effect unit if you wanted to. The MG16XU and MG20XU have basic but functional one-knob compressors built into several of the input channels too. The Mackie I mentioned has a built-in effect processor, but lacks the compressors.

 

 

[KevinTJH]

Taking a hypothetical band with two guitarists, a drummer and a bass player, and assuming three people need vocal mics, and assuming the band wanted to use some backing tracks to play along with live, and using a Yamaha MG16XU mixer, I'd probably go with the following setup:

 

That's actually spot on with what the band is.

 

I ended up getting the Yamaha MG16 (not the XU version though, which as far as I know, is only missing the digital effects), which is also quite a bit cheaper.

 

At this moment in time, I'm not to worry about vocal mics, guitar/bass mics, and drum mics as the main PA will be looking after that.

It's more just getting the 2 different mixes (as you mentioned) for the In-ear monitoring.

 

Are AUX SEND's only Mono, while PHONES are stereo?

 

I probably need to do more research myself anyway, but thought I'd ask first. What do GROUP OUT's do?

 

After rehearsing today, I found the band to actually be super tight since we have a good drummer who played really well with that click-track mix I did.

I don't think we would really need anything too complex at this stage, so the stage wedges would suffice as fallbacks for now.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Yes, the aux sends on the MG16 are mono. You'd want to use something like one of these to route the signal to both inputs on a headphone amp so that you could hear the sound in both ears.

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/YPP106--hosa-ypp-106-6-inch

 

Just plug a standard 1/4" cable into the aux out jack and the other end into the adapter, and the two plugs on the adapter into the two inputs (L/R) on your headphone amp.

 

Crud... I just looked at the details for the headphone amp you mentioned earlier - it has a 1/4" TRS input, and not individual L/R inputs. You'll need a second adapter at the other end - one of these would do it:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/YPP117--hosa-ypp-117-6-inch

 

Plug a regular 1/4" cable into the aux output, the other end of it into the first adapter's female input, and the two 1/4" male plugs from the first adapter into the second adapter'd female jacks, then plug the 1/4" TRS on the second adapter into the input of your Behringer headphone amp. It's a bit of a kludge, but it will work.

 

 

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

Groups allow you to combine various channels of the board. They're used for submixes - for example, when multitrack recording, you might want to route all of the tom mics to a pair of tracks instead of recording them to separate tracks - a group allows you to do that. In a live situation, you might group all of the drum mics together so you could adjust the overall level of the drums with just a single group fader instead of having to adjust 4-8 faders (or whatever) all at once.

[KevinTJH]

Thank you, Phil!!!

[Phil O'Keefe]

You’re welcome.