Jump to content

Question for the Pros: Odd Situation Over the Weekend


Recommended Posts

  • Members

Question for the pros: Yesterday I sat in and played guitar with a band at a local church. Sanctuary seats 1,000. Not played here before. I get set up with an 18 watt single 12 combo amp. After a few minutes the head guy comes over with a decibel meter asking me to set my amp to around 90 decibels as that is what they like to keep the stage volume around (I noticed he had the switch set to A weighting on the meter). Without adjusting my volume I hit a few chords and the meter gets up to 91 at one point, but before I can do anything the guy says no problem, close enough and no need to change. He then goes around to the other musicians doing (what I assume) are similar measurements. The drums were in a cage built into the stage and he measured those while standing in front of the cage, he also measured one of the floor monitors while the keyboard played. He seemed satisfied with all the readings he got. After this he takes his position at the front of the stage and we proceed to play the intro to a song to set monitor levels for instruments, once that is done we go through a song chorus to set the singers mics set (there were four), the entire time he is watching this DB meter like a hawk and while the overall monitor mix was actually quite good, when something would exceed his target level he would request the overall mix be brought down. Not really a big deal, I could hear what I needed and the group actually sounded pretty good.

 

Now the situation: After monitors were set he asked for the front house speakers to be turned on. Leader kicks off the first song and instantly I am lost in a mess of midrange keyboard echoes, reverberant drums, and undefined mud all compounded by a complete lack of high end definition. My amp and monitor were completely buried by wash from the front of house speakers (five of which were installed above the stage). Halfway through leader stops the band (it was bad) and informs us that we were hitting 107 on stage (No, the front speakers were hitting 107 on stage). Agitated he asks if anyone turned up their volume, of course no one had. His solution was to bring the monitor mix down a few notches to try and get rid of some stage volume, which just made the situation worse. I (badly) made it through rehearsal. Afterwards I stopped the leader and asked if we could turn the monitors up to try and overcome the house speaker wash, of course that was “not an option because the house speakers are not the problem”. He did say this is a problem they have fought for some time and he just doesn’t understand why the stage volume is so loud and that maybe they needed to go with amp simulators for the guitars and electronic drums. Obviously I wasn’t going to get through to this guy so I just excused myself from the conversation.

 

But now I am wondering what the pros think about this situation? I am guessing the problem is the mids and bass from the FOH speakers are hitting the stage (they are omni-directional right?), but the high end is aimed at the congregation and since that tends to be directional, the stage gets none of it, and this caused the mudiness I was hearing. This really struck me as a situation where we just needed to turn up the monitors (or maybe turn down the house speakers). I mean if we were hitting 107 on stage with FOH wash, our stage volume would have to be over 107 to effect what the people in the seats hear right? Or is this an install issue? My wife was in the sanctuary for service and asked if the five huge FOH speakers suspended over the stage effected what hits the stage. We run sound for our own travelling P&W band and we set our speakers off to the side of the stages we play (like most bar bands). We have never had this problem, probably due to being a bit louder on stage and a bit quieter in the front of house speakers. In fact, I have never had FOH wash like this anywhere I have played. Am I wrong to think amp sims won’t even put a dent in this guy’s problems? I am not seeing how this is a stage volume issue, his stage volume is so low right now it gets overpowered. Or am I wrong here?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

If his concern was volume in the audience area, then that's where he should be metering. If he's only concerned with stage volume, then he shouldn't be using individual measurements of instrument amps at such a high level. There's little wonder he's confused and frustrated, as he isn't grasping the fact that several 90dB sources will total far above 90dB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
If his concern was volume in the audience area, then that's where he should be metering. If he's only concerned with stage volume, then he shouldn't be using individual measurements of instrument amps at such a high level. There's little wonder he's confused and frustrated, as he isn't grasping the fact that several 90dB sources will total far above 90dB.

 

 

I got the impression he was mainly concerned with stage volume. Several of his measurements were taken with the band and singers at full boogie, but with the house speakers off. I did not see what his meter said (using your statement it must have been over 90 as the instruments were individually set to 90), but he seemed pleased with whatever it was at the time, until the house speakers were brought up.

 

I guess I never realized that multiple 90 dB source could result in a higher spl.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

How about carving out some low / mids from the monitor mix, and maybe a bit from the FOH mix as well? You could leave them in the delay speakers if there are any.

 

Can the band move back at all? Even a foot can help sometimes.

 

BTW, I am no pro, but I have never seen anyone meter individual instruments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Op I didn't make that statement as sarcasm but as a genuine inquiry. From your brief description, it appears there is a bit of mis-directed "enthusiasm"? I'm wondering how much real experience is behind this methodology ?

 

I didn't take offense, after all I am the one asking here. I play in a lot of churches and usually the worship leaders have excellent degrees in something theologically related, but not much related to music or production. So you may very well be on the right path with your question.

 

To answer your question, I have no idea what this guy's background is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
How about carving out some low / mids from the monitor mix, and maybe a bit from the FOH mix as well? You could leave them in the delay speakers if there are any.

 

I couldn't hear the monitors so I am thinking EQ adjustments won't make a difference there. But I never thought about the FOH, I will have to ask my wife if the mids were overbearing in the house, that might explain the bleed onto the stage.

 

 

BTW, I am no pro, but I have never seen anyone meter individual instruments.

 

Unfortunately modern worship leaders have this insane hatred of stage volume, any stage volume. And more of them around here are starting to meter individual instruments in an attempt to maintain "control". This is not the first time I have run into this. Ironically this attempt to control stage volume never results in a better house mix as the sound boards are run by well intentioned, but completely inexperienced, volunteers.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

There is a strong rule in Big Band groups that applies everywhere IMO: if you cannot clearly hear the soloist, you are playing too loud. Underlining that rule in a group can help more inexperienced players judge their own stage volume.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
There is a strong rule in Big Band groups that applies everywhere IMO: if you cannot clearly hear the soloist, you are playing too loud. Underlining that rule in a group can help more inexperienced players judge their own stage volume.

 

Good rule no doubt. In this situation everyone on stage had trouble hearing themselves, singers and musicians. The situation got worse after the monitors were turned down. I was not the soloist and I could not hear my amp six feet behind me.

 

It sounds like everyone here is focused on the stage volume from the band? So side-wash from the mains are probably not the culprit most likely?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Members

So you're telling me that this was the worship leader/band leader - not the sound guy, doing this? Where was the sound guy?

 

 

 

sounds like he's had a hard time about "stage volume" from someone who doesn't understand how these things work... Sounds like a mess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
So you're telling me that this was the worship leader/band leader - not the sound guy, doing this? Where was the sound guy?

 

 

 

sounds like he's had a hard time about "stage volume" from someone who doesn't understand how these things work... Sounds like a mess.

 

Correct, the WL was the one doing this. The sound guy was a well-meaning, but totally clueless volunteer that said nothing the whole day.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

 

Good rule no doubt. In this situation everyone on stage had trouble hearing themselves, singers and musicians. The situation got worse after the monitors were turned down. I was not the soloist and I could not hear my amp six feet behind me.

 

It sounds like everyone here is focused on the stage volume from the band? So side-wash from the mains are probably not the culprit most likely?

 

It may have contributed to the problem, but if it was so loud that turning up the monitors made things worse, side-wash wasn't the main culprit. From what I can gather by your description, the BL should have been metering (well he really shouldn't at all) for a much lower single-instrument reading. The buildup when all instruments are playing exceeds the individual readings. There are all kinds of factors in play here....too many instruments in the same frequency range will make that freq range unintelligible, for instance. The placement and direction and directionality of speakers is another. But the basic issue is that the backline needs less volume...far less from what you're telling us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

First, 107a weighted on stage is pretty damn loud. The a weighting doesn't consider the bass frequencies so you could have easily been 10 dB hotter if he had used C weighting.

 

 

 

But it to your question ... Yes, I expect that a big part of that stage level was the wash from the mains. It would have been interesting to make the measurement while switching on and off the mains.

 

 

 

If their primary focus is SPL then they are probably in for electronic drums, amp simulators and IEMs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
There is a strong rule in Big Band groups that applies everywhere IMO: if you cannot clearly hear the soloist, you are playing too loud. Underlining that rule in a group can help more inexperienced players judge their own stage volume.

 

That should apply to other types of groups as well.

 

One of the easiest bands I worked with was Brickhouse out of Vancouver BC. The soloists did not turn up for their bits but, instead, everyone else got out of the way. They all just backed off until it was their turn. The best part was that there was no (or at least minimal) volume creep as the show went on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So I was just filling in for the regular guy the week I posted this question. He has been back now for a bit and just sent me an email asking about local repair shops for his amp. Apparently the worship leader decided to go with a fully silent stage setup. Drums were replaced with e-drums (but still in a drum cage), in-ear systems were bought (two for the singers to share and two for the musicians to share), all amps were required to go in freshly built isolation boxes behind the stage, no monitors on stage at all, all keyboard speakers were muted. The end result? Still over 100 Db on stage according to the same meter. Of course that drops significantly when the house speakers are turned off. There are only two mixes for the musicians, so no one gets to have their instrument up in the mix. The choir is having trouble hearing the band well enough to sing. He said the situation is frustrating and the worship leader still doesn't understand where the excessive "stage volume" is coming from.

 

Oh, and the reason for his email? The isolation boxes were built without cooling fans and are just big enough to fit the amps, so his AC15 got "real hot" and stopped working.

 

ETA: Forgot to add, I guess the worship leader is relatively new to the church and has been making huge changes each week. I was under the imprssion he had been there a while, but I was wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author
So I was just filling in for the regular guy the week I posted this question. He has been back now for a bit and just sent me an email asking about local repair shops for his amp. Apparently the worship leader decided to go with a fully silent stage setup. Drums were replaced with e-drums (but still in a drum cage), in-ear systems were bought (two for the singers to share and two for the musicians to share), all amps were required to go in freshly built isolation boxes behind the stage, no monitors on stage at all, all keyboard speakers were muted. The end result? Still over 100 Db on stage according to the same meter. Of course that drops significantly when the house speakers are turned off. There are only two mixes for the musicians, so no one gets to have their instrument up in the mix. The choir is having trouble hearing the band well enough to sing. He said the situation is frustrating and the worship leader still doesn't understand where the excessive "stage volume" is coming from.

 

Oh, and the reason for his email? The isolation boxes were built without cooling fans and are just big enough to fit the amps, so his AC15 got "real hot" and stopped working.

 

ETA: Forgot to add, I guess the worship leader is relatively new to the church and has been making huge changes each week. I was under the imprssion he had been there a while, but I was wrong.




 

 

Something, or Drag and Drop Images Here...

 

I'd imagine it would be frustrating to be involved with one of these cluster f's, but it sure is entertaining to read.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...