Column line array for mid/high freq reinforcement

[JustInRed]

For background here is the system we are working with.

 

Behringer x32 compact

 

DBX Driverack

 

Pair of JBL PRX425's powered by a QSC RMX 2450

 

Pair of JBL PRX418's powered by another QSC RMX 2450

 

Pair of Cerwin Vega CVA121's

 

For monitors we run a pair of EV ZLX15's and a pair of JBL EON615.

 

We have plenty of bass for the venues we play but are looking to boost some our high end clarity. I have been looking into the column line array speakers. Similar to the Bose L1 system. The bose ones don't attract me much because they have to come with a sub and only work within their own environment. The carvin TRX3903s look interesting though and run $500 a piece. A QSC GX3 amp runs $300. Could run the xover from within the X32 on its own matrix. EQ whatever I want for the room on the fly, just for those speakers.

 

What my question is, does anyone have any experience with these Carvin's or any other of the column line array style speakers?

 

http://www.carvinaudio.com/products/trx3903-360w-vertical-array-speaker-system

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GX3

 

 

 

[Craig Vecchione]

I would suggest that you consider building a system, rather than a collection. Right now you've got four 18" drivers, four 15" drivers, and a pair of HF horns. If you play outdoors this is probably a decent system for that, as there's plenty of sub support. But you might be having a problem with too much low mids/midbass which you're interpreting as high end clarity issues.

 

Are you running the 425's fullrange, or as midhighs? If the latter, what's the crossing frequency?

 

I'm concerned that adding an unknown "line array" is going to make a mess of this rig. The output pattern is completely different than the PRX425's pattern, so coverage may be "unusual". Carvin is spotty...some of their stuff is decent, some is crap. The trouble is that you can't go to a store and demo it. Buy, and hope you don't have to go through the hassle of trying to return it for a refund.

 

If you're having problems with high end output, let's get a baseline. First, try running the system flat...no EQ at all at remember to set your Driverack levels to 0dB on all outputs. If it's lacking high end, reduce your LF output on the Driverack to achieve balance. If you need to reduce LF more than say 6dB, you should consider a different setup, but if not, you really just need to run the system with the outputs balanced properly.

 

Let's get this baseline and then proceed from there.

[Craig Vecchione]

Just a side note, that Bose used to sell the L1 (Model 1?) without the B1 bass module. It appears they've realized it was in direct competition with their L1 Compact and dropped it.

 

This doesn't mean I think the L1 would be a good idea here...I don't. While it's a good system, it's a system and meant to be used without other mid-high speakers. All the benefits of the L1 design would be wasted, and it's a lot of money to pay for features you won't take advantage of.

[abzurd]

FWIW, I've just sold 2 full sets of FBT Vertus column arrays. I thought it's what I wanted, but in practice they just didn't work out as I'd hoped. This particular model had its own quirks that not all column arrays have, but one major thing they have in common is that they are easily blocked.

 

In small venues the audience is often right up on the speakers and the column arrays are positioned lower due to their shape. One person standing in front of the speaker can effectively kill the sound. So the arrays work best for outdoor or larger indoor shows where there's some room between the speakers and crowd.

 

Incidentally, I took part of the proceeds and bought a pair of RCF 745-A speakers. They just arrived at work about an hour ago.

[Craig Vecchione]

One thing to consider about these short line arrays is that they're too short to really be effective throughout the spectrum their drivers cover. That's part of why I mentioned coverage problems, which would be exacerbated by pairing them with the PRX425's.

 

I'd concentrate on getting the system balanced as much as possible before spending money that might not fix what's wrong.

[Tomm Williams]

I would suggest that you consider building a system, rather than a collection. Right now you've got four 18" drivers, four 15" drivers, and a pair of HF horns. If you play outdoors this is probably a decent system for that, as there's plenty of sub support. But you might be having a problem with too much low mids/midbass which you're interpreting as high end clarity issues.

 

Are you running the 425's fullrange, or as midhighs? If the latter, what's the crossing frequency?

 

I'm concerned that adding an unknown "line array" is going to make a mess of this rig. The output pattern is completely different than the PRX425's pattern, so coverage may be "unusual". Carvin is spotty...some of their stuff is decent, some is crap. The trouble is that you can't go to a store and demo it. Buy, and hope you don't have to go through the hassle of trying to return it for a refund.

 

If you're having problems with high end output, let's get a baseline. First, try running the system flat...no EQ at all at remember to set your Driverack levels to 0dB on all outputs. If it's lacking high end, reduce your LF output on the Driverack to achieve balance. If you need to reduce LF more than say 6dB, you should consider a different setup, but if not, you really just need to run the system with the outputs balanced properly.

 

Let's get this baseline and then proceed from there.

 

 

Good advice as a conglomeration of speakers rarely (ever?) results in satisfactory results. Simple application of HPF's on everything but bass,kick and keys can also help. The PRX4XX series are not bad speakers, I would bet your system set-up and/or deployment has more to do with this than anything.

[Pro Sound Guy]

This is pretty simple. Go and buy another pair of JBL PRX425's. Never mix and match a bunch of different loudspeaker designs. I would even say go get another pair of the JBL subs as well but getting another pair of MATCHING tops

is the right answer.

[Craig Vecchione]

This is pretty simple. Go and buy another pair of JBL PRX425's. Never mix and match a bunch of different loudspeaker designs. I would even say go get another pair of the JBL subs as well but getting another pair of MATCHING tops

is the right answer.

 

I'd suggest trading in the 425's for four 415's. But first let's see if he can get the present system running its best.

[Pro Sound Guy]

I saw he wanted to purchase a Bose stick to put in the mix and wanted to point out that adding matching boxes

is the way to go

He copied and pasted his post on PSW as well.

The Bose idea did not fly well over there

[Tomm Williams]

I saw he wanted to purchase a Bose stick to put in the mix and wanted to point out that adding matching boxes

 

is the way to go

 

He copied and pasted his post on PSW as well.

 

The Bose idea did not fly well over there

 

 

 

I can imagine how that forum reacted😳

[JustInRed]

Awesome! Finally some good solid advice. I have had trouble getting that, which is why I posted on several forums. Have yet to see what kind of hate I drew on PSW. Will update with my status of closeness to satan.

 

So what I'm getting is don't buy anything until I'm sure my system can't do it. I have completely ditched the idea of the column line arrays unless I build a new system from scratch designed around it. Which isn't going to happen. A mobile IEM rig is next on the budget, I'll probably do a post about that in the future.

 

To answer some questions. We are a local original metal band that plays in a variety of venues, both indoor and out. Set up and tear down time are important factors to us. We have gotten pretty good at it, our current record is 36 minutes from last note played to everything packed and in the bus.

 

We have a DBX Driverack PA+. I'm thinking this would be the place to start. What do you think are recommended settings for the system I have?

 

Edit: For those that are curious. Here is a picture of the way we typically setup the rig. 425s on 418 on CVA21.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203192166003868&set=pb.1799633855.-2207520000.1437632188.&type=3&theater

[Craig Vecchione]

I'd guess about the same as it used to here. We've evolved....

[Craig Vecchione]

The PA+ should have presets for the PRX boxes. Check and confirm this. You can treat the CV subs the same as the 418's.

 

The "problem" with driverack devices is what also makes them great...their power. There are so many individual settings that it's quite easy to forget, or to set something wrong...either intentionally or by fat-fingering the knob...and have a horrible problem that you can't find. If you aren't intimately familiar with the entire unit, you need to get to that point. Print out a copy of the owner's manual and keep it with the magazines in the can, or at your favorite chair, and read the thing well past the point of boredom. If you don't know what a setting actually does, ask here.

 

Your rig has a lot of mid-bass and sub support, decent (the JBL 15's are surprisingly good at this) midrange, and barely adequate highs...in terms of output (the sound quality is very good). There's always a temptation to push the bass up more and more. I'm guessing that the LF output on the Driverack might me boosted above 0dB. For some rigs 9dB is not unusual. But for your setup I'm thinking it might be better to start at 0dB and possibly drop it a few dB's.

 

If there's compression in use, find out why and most likely get rid of it to start with. Comp overused adds mud to low end and mids, which makes vocals unintelligible.

 

Regarding the picture: Tell whoever hung the US flags to never have one touching the ground.

[abzurd]

The flag should also be flipped with the stars to the upper left.

[abzurd]

I suggest trying the KISS approach at your next show.

 

• Don’t use the JBL subs, or use them to get the mains at the right height, but don’t hook up
  
• Ditch the Driverack and use the crossover on the CV subs instead
  
• Cross the subs over at the 85 Hz setting (high pass to through)
  
• Set the low pass on the subs to 85 Hz, or maybe slightly lower
  

This is what you’ve done

 

• Removed the chance your Driverack is hindering performance
  
• Removed the interaction of the 2 different subs, which can cause cancellation and lobes
  
• Increased mids and highs (less lows means more highs)
  
• Crossed over the CV subs fairly low to give some room for your mains to work better (my guess is your PRX boxes were going into the mid-bass range and muddying up the sound.
  

 

[modulusman]

Awesome! Finally some good solid advice. I have had trouble getting that, which is why I posted on several forums. Have yet to see what kind of hate I drew on PSW. Will update with my status of closeness to satan.

 

So what I'm getting is don't buy anything until I'm sure my system can't do it. I have completely ditched the idea of the column line arrays unless I build a new system from scratch designed around it. Which isn't going to happen. A mobile IEM rig is next on the budget, I'll probably do a post about that in the future.

 

To answer some questions. We are a local original metal band that plays in a variety of venues, both indoor and out. Set up and tear down time are important factors to us. We have gotten pretty good at it, our current record is 36 minutes from last note played to everything packed and in the bus.

 

We have a DBX Driverack PA+. I'm thinking this would be the place to start. What do you think are recommended settings for the system I have?

 

Edit: For those that are curious. Here is a picture of the way we typically setup the rig. 425s on 418 on CVA21.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

 

Next time you post on PSW use the right forum. You should have posted in Lab Lounge instead of the big boy forum.

[Tomm Williams]

The suggestion to simplify your system is spot on. You might be surprised how good a very simple system can sound when run properly. And the Druverack is a great tool in trained hands but a terrible choice for someone at the low end of the learning curve.

 

 

 

Hang onto it for the day it all makes sense.

[JustInRed]

Firs of all I want to thank all of you for the help. The band played a gig last Friday and we got the system sounding great. I bought a RTA mic for the drive rack and let it do its thing and didn't adjust squat. Highs and mids now much clearer. Turned down the levels on my 18's and 21's. Sound is very full and well rounded sounding (I have no clue of a better way to say this). Am now very happy with the entire system now. Thank you all for saving me $1500 and leading me to change what needed to be adjusted. That money will be spent on buying an In Ear Monitor setup so we can actually hear ourselves at gigs where we aren't running sound and the engineer doesn't believe in monitors. I will be making a post on that at somepoint so all of you fine professionals can tell me where I'm wrong there too!

[Craig Vecchione]

Glad it's working for you instead of against you!