Members Rick6 Posted June 16, 2015 Members Share Posted June 16, 2015 A couple of technical issues. 1. The Alto smelled pretty bad. Even the box it came in reeked. Vaguely like some new electronics, but much stronger. Any idea what that is? 2. The ME80 has a rec/phones Low Z output rated at -10dbu. It will drive the Alto, but I have to rotate the volume knob into the "mic" region to get high volume. In the "line" region, I might not be able to keep up with a drummer. But, the "mic" region seems to overemphasize the bass, I hear some oscillation with the ME80 (not if I plug the guitar in directly) and it generally sounds bad. 3. Some online experts indicate, perhaps correctly, that I need a preamp and a cabinet modeler. The ME80 has a "guitar amp simulator) which doesn't do much. 4. I took a direct out of the back of a Mesa Boogie Mark III head. Kept the Alto in the "line" area and it sounded okay. That's fine, but I bought the Alto so I wouldn't have to carry a heavy amp. So now, to my question. Does the Alto expect a pro line level +4 dbu input rather than the consumer audio level that the ME80 is nominally rated for. Is that, fundamentally the problem? The specs say Mic/line input will go down to -50dbu. That may be right, but the "mic" region doesn't sound good to me. Apparently, at around 1 o'clock on the volume knob a mic preamp kicks in. Is that right? And, also apparently, I don't like the way that mic preamp sounds. Thanks in advance for any light shed on this. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 16, 2015 Members Share Posted June 16, 2015 Ok, I think I know what the problem is here. Exactly what connectors are you using on the cable coming out of the rec out? You can NOT use a TRS cable because the signal is single ended stereo from the ME-80 but TRS balanced on the speaker. Can you come out of the guitar amp out instead. This is a standard 1/4" TS single ended signal and if you use a regular TS to TS cable you will not experience common mode rejection (where any signal common to left and right is not amplified) If you have to use the rec out, use an adapter cable with 1/8" TRS connector at the ME-80 end to a pair of 1/4"TS on the powered speaker end and use only left or right into the speaker.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rick6 Posted June 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2015 AgedHorse, Thanks for that. I don't know how long it would have taken me to think of it (never). But, in fact, I had stumbled across that problem and avoided it by luck. The cable I was using was a stereo cable I had -- on which one channel was broken. So, I was running from the 1/8 TRS to mono. Stopped clock and all that. After reading your post I connected in stereo, with more horrible results than before. At that point I had to crank it all the to hear a quiet, highly distorted sound. But, that aside, I'm still thinking this is a level mismatch. How do these volume controls work, the ones with half line and half mic? What it seems to me is that the line portion of the rotation expects +4 and the rest of the rotation includes a mic preamp which allows it to deal with much smaller input levels. Does that make sense? BTW, the volume change per degree of knob rotation gets real steep around 1 o'clock. Might that be the mic preamp kicking in? Again, thanks it advance, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 16, 2015 Members Share Posted June 16, 2015 Stop, it is almost certainly not a level problem. If the tip or ring was open in the bad stereo cable, everything becomes "common mode" as there is no return reference for the opposite side of the balanced receiver. Really, try exactly what I have said to try and I am 95% sure your problem will go away. The other possibility is that there is a software based volume control that you are missing within the programmability for patch leveling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rick6 Posted June 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2015 Sorry I wasn't clearer. I did try it your way. I used an 1/8 TRS into a pair of 1/4 TS -- of which I plugged in one. Sound was okay, but not loud enough to keep up with a drummer unless I turned the volume knob into the region marked "mic". Then, the sound gets rapidly louder with an increase in bass and harshness, to my ear. There is no software control of output level for the ME80 based on the manual. There are level knobs in several places which can add quite a bit of gain, but which also change the sound. Output is -10dbu according to the manual, for the regular outputs and for the rec/phones output. They're the same. The rec/phones output kicks in an "amp simulator" but all I hear is some increased bass. I did try running a line from the ME80 into a KorgPX5D set to do cabinet modelling only. That sounded pretty good, but not loud. One possibility is that I'm not perceiving the bass increase accurately because of a hearing problem (long story) but my wife hears it too. The guitarists I have discussed it with on-line like the Alto (and are surprised that I'm having this problem -- they attribute it to the ME80 being "junk") , but they're driving it with more sophisticated modeling units like the Axe FX or Kemper, which, I assume, must put out more voltage. So their solution is "get a preamp and get cabinet modeling". So far, the cabinet modeling suggestion has tested out to be a good one. I'm still working on the preamp issue. Thanks again for the assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted June 16, 2015 Members Share Posted June 16, 2015 Hey rick i think you are misunderstanding how the input gain control works. Start by forgetting that is says mic and line. There is only one input and it doesn't change according to where you set the knob. You are always running through the mic preamp regardless of where the knob is set. Yes you probably do hear an increase in bass and harshness (treble) as you turn it up. But that's more about the way human hearing works and isn't because of any change happening in the electronics. Now if the speaker simulator isn't to you liking in the ME80, then it isn't and you'll need to do something about that. But I'm sure the ME80 will drive the speaker to full output. You may just not lie what you hear when you get there and that isn't a matter of adjusting sensitivities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 16, 2015 Members Share Posted June 16, 2015 -10dB is the nominal output level, but this will vary depending on where the level controls are set. You may need to increase the input level to the powered speaker, you may be outputting -16dB which may fall into the "mic gain" territory according to the input panel legend. As Don mentioned, there is no other routing except through the "preamp" regardless of what you might be thinking so turn the level up as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rick6 Posted June 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2015 Ok, thanks to Don and Aged .... That makes sense. I was guessing about how the mic preamp worked and I'm aware it wasn't a very informed guess (it was because it seemed nonlinear around 1 o'clock in the rotation of the knob). So thanks for clearing that up. And, it also makes sense that I may need to feed the Alto a stronger signal. From the reports I got from two users, they aren't running it past 11 o'clock in a band situation - and that's way too quiet for a band when I try it. So, my thought is that it sounds better when it gets a strong signal which it doesn't have to amplify as much. Does that make sense? BTW, Aged, was the -16db figure a typo? If not, how did you arrive at that number? All that said, I think you guys nailed it. As always, I appreciate the help. I hope I can repay the kindness, for example, If you ever need someone to make stuff up that isn't true about a piece of electronic gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 17, 2015 Members Share Posted June 17, 2015 Per the MD80 manual below Oscillating sound occurs : Is the gain for any gain or volume related effects parameters set to high?Lower the values. I suspect the strange tone you are hearing when the input gain on the powered loudspeaker is correct isover saturation of effect. Bypass all your effects and get a good level / tone of the guitar with the ME80 with effects bypassedinto the powered loudspeaker. When you get your levels right THEN add some effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 17, 2015 Members Share Posted June 17, 2015 Manual http://roland.com/support/article/?q=manuals&p=ME-80&id=63073413 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 17, 2015 Members Share Posted June 17, 2015 I just pulled -16dB out of my butt. It's 1/2 the level of -10dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 17, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 . So, my thought is that it sounds better when it gets a strong signal which it doesn't have to amplify as much. Does that make sense? All other things being equal (which they rarely ever are), a stronger input signal is better than a weak one in terms of signal-to-noise. As long as the input signal doesn't overdrive the device it's feeding, stronger is better. But as with all things in the realm of electronic audio, don't obsess over this. Modern gear is very clean, and s/n isn't nearly as important as it was 30 years ago. As long as the signal is hot enough to fully drive the amp and remain clean, you're good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted June 17, 2015 Members Share Posted June 17, 2015 So' date=' my thought is that it sounds better when it gets a strong signal which it doesn't have to amplify as much. Does that make sense?. [/quote'] Think about playing a recorded song through your hi-if speakers at a medium volume. Now turn that signal down to half of the medium level. Now turn it up to double that medium level. What you hear wil sound different ... But the recording didn't change except for voltage. So so as long as you don't turn up loud enough to begin to clip the electronics the sound doesn't change. But how your ears hear does change with level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rick6 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 17, 2015 Aged, Did you use half the level because it's just one side of a stereo pair? Or is there some other reason? (forgive me, I know I'm out of my depth here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted June 17, 2015 Members Share Posted June 17, 2015 The level is going to be all over the place from moment to moment. You can't set system to that. What you should be most concerned with is that the peak level doesn't clip the input stage of your speaker. Usually gain staging is based on the potential maximum output of a piece of gear (unless you are making some special consideration). There will be differences from preset to preset and of course the output level will be tracking your input level. So as you play from ppp to fff the output will follow the corresponding amount too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 17, 2015 Members Share Posted June 17, 2015 Aged' date=' Did you use half the level because it's just one side of a stereo pair? Or is there some other reason? (forgive me, I know I'm out of my depth here). [/quote'] Nope, just pulled it out of my butt because it represented easy math. I should also note that 6dB is 1/2 the voltage and 1/4 the power, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rick6 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 17, 2015 All other things being equal (which they rarely ever are), a stronger input signal is better than a weak one in terms of signal-to-noise. As long as the input signal doesn't overdrive the device it's feeding, stronger is better. But as with all things in the realm of electronic audio, don't obsess over this. Modern gear is very clean, and s/n isn't nearly as important as it was 30 years ago. As long as the signal is hot enough to fully drive the amp and remain clean, you're good. The thing I'm wondering about is if the frequency response of the Alto varies dramatically with the volume. So that, there is actually disproportionately more bass when I crank it up. Otherwise, Messrs Fletcher and Munson are enjoying themselves at my expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 18, 2015 Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 Your hearing sensitivity versus frequency varies with level a lot. I wonder if this is what you are experiencing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 18, 2015 Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 Set the ME80 unit to all factory defaults. You are aware there is an "output" control on the ME80?Where are you running the output control at on the ME80? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rick6 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 There's an output level knob on the face of the unit. I've tried it at noon and pinned. It's also possible to get additional gain from various modules within the ME80, and I've tried a bunch of things, including pinning everything, which didn't sound good and did oscillate. (yes, turn down the levels, good point there). The guys on another forum who are using it for amplification, are driving it with units that put out more voltage. they don't run the Alto past noon. And their units do more signal processing including preamp, power amp and cabinet modeling. I also tried putting a Korg PX5D with cabinet modeling only turned on (between the ME80 and the Alto) and it made the sound better, at least at moderate volumes. So far the guys who use it seem to be suggesting that I need more volts and some sort of power amp and cabinet modeling. The manuals that come with the devices suggest otherwise, but there's no substitute for plugging the stuff in and trying it. Specifically, the ME80 claims a "guitar amp simulator" which is activated whenever anything is plugged into rec/phones out. I can hear a little more bass, but that's about it. And, the Alto has a mic/line input which should work with lower voltages than the ME80 puts out. So, it ought to work, right? In fact, the ME80's "simulator" doesn't do nearly as much as the Korg cabinet model only. Sounds much better with the Korg. And, the Alto doesn't sound that great when I crank it to keep-up-with-drums volume. Could be my hearing. Hard to say. Anyway, bottom line is that I was looking for a lightweight, moderate cost unit. The Alto was $189 new at GC. I'm very happy with the ME80. To use the Alto, apparently I need another processor, which is too big a sacrifice in weight and simplicity. I already have a Roland KC150 (65 watt kb amp)-- and I've gigged with it using the ME80. Not the best sound I ever heard, but it was good enough. The guitarist Alto users I have mentioned this to are shocked that I preferred the Roland to the Alto. They say, and they might be right, that I'm not using the Alto correctly, or I would love it. At this point I guess it doesn't matter. They also say that KB amps are not FRFR, although it isn't clear if, in my situation, that's a bug or feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 18, 2015 Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 The Alto may not be enough speaker for the job, or the ME-80 might not be the right piece for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted June 18, 2015 Members Share Posted June 18, 2015 The Alto may not be enough speaker fit the job' date=' or the ME-80 might not be the right piece for you.[/quote'] YEP. Working correctly and working to your satisfaction may not be the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rick6 Posted June 19, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 19, 2015 That's where I ended up. No criticism of the Alto, but it wasn't the tool for the job I had in mind. Even if the level issue wasn't a problem, the amp modeling was. So, I couldn't meet the goals for lightweight, low cost and simplicity. It was going to take another box or two to shape the sound and maybe match the levels. Sad, because, on paper, it should have worked. The Alto has a mic preamp and the ME80 has "guitar amp simulation". Anyway, I returned it to GC. Good customer service. Just a couple of minutes in the store and I had my refund. Thanks for helping me think this through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 19, 2015 Members Share Posted June 19, 2015 Glad to hear you could dump the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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