Sound for a small community event

[Dingoist]

I've got a small setup for running open mics which works well enough (I've been thinking about upgrading though, but these community open mics I run aren't paid and I organize as a benefit for the local food bank so I don't get an income on it to upgrade), but I've been asked to put together something for a community fun day, it'll be a small tent with mostly solo / duo, perhaps a band or two. My mixer is a Soundcraft EFX8, and that can handle the bluegrass band well enough (they aren't picky about the number of individual monitors, since there's only aux1 send, and I can use the fx1 as a second if i'd like), and the other bigger band uses electronic drum kit which makes it easier. I'm keeping it simple. Being up in the Great White North, yorkville stuff is easy to borrow and rent

 

I'm thinking of a pair of E10P's for FOH, a pair NX10C for side wash, and perhaps something extra for a centre monitor. I won't be doing too much for the monitoring, except perhaps a bit more vocals for the "more me" singers. It won't be a large audience, nor have to throw for distance but it will be outdoors.

 

Opinions? I was toying with the idea, being a smaller thinking of checking out the Line6 L3T if I can rent them, one (or pair) for FOH, and one as a monitor -- perhaps even to replace some of my existing gear in the near future with the L6 stuff. But for the same cost, I can get a couple of yamaha DXRs.

 

The performers requirements aren't huge, I'm pulling on some local talent, and nothing too fancy, and many aren't that experienced on stages (one reason why I put these things together, is to help get youth and others wanting to start playing live a venue and get some experience).

[trevcda]

Hopefully your looking for good advice here and not just validation for something you're going to do anyway, even if advised against or at least differently, like many who come here with the same type of questions.

 

I would say the big issue with your plan is with the electronic drums. With no stage sound coming from the drums, the entire sounds is dependent on your sound system out front and your monitors on stage. This would be difficult for any of the speakers you mentioned in a small room. Putting it outside in a true half space, I think your looking at replacing broken equipment in very short order. Without proper reinforcement it's not going to be pretty. If you still plan on going foreword with your plan, be sure that you are the only one running the board, with managed expectations, because someone who doesn't know your system and is expecting a certain sound is probably not going to get it with out damaging something.

 

Don't use the FX1 send for monitors. Any move you make on the faders will be reflected on that send which will mean your monitor mix will be constantly changing. Not good. The PRE/POST button to the right will switch the AUX 1 sends from pre to post fader. Make sure it's in the PRE position.

 

Sometimes what you got is what you got. Just make sure you're not expecting too much out your system and you may do fine. Just watch those drums. Perhaps some of the performers can add something from their equipment to bolster your system? A pair of subs maybe? Good luck!

[Dingoist]

I'm open to all sorts of opinions for this minor level of event.

 

I don't want to go overkill, and the stuff I use I know isn't up to snuff which is why I'll be borrowing/renting. I've run boards before mostly for radio production (I worked in radio for a couple of years but that's a different ball game), and for my open mic. I haven't really run boards for this style of event and this will be a learning experience for me. Making things sound okay, within the confines of a sports club with a single speaker or two on a pole (which I do on a regular basis) is different then doing things in a tent outside which I haven't done much of before. The level of expectations also differ.

 

It's not validation, but basically "is it sufficient". I can rent other gear, but basically keeping monitor tailoring to a minimum, will this suffice? I think there will be challenges as you pointed out, especially with edrums. What that might take is an additional monitor just for the drummer.

 

The e-drums is difficult, mostly because the guy who runs them sometimes brings his own speakers / mixer (not always but often enough) and it gets really convoluted, so I partially give up and let him do what he needs, as long as I can keep the other elements together (not always possible). I was hoping with a bigger speaker / monitor solution I can convince him to run to the board instead. Sometimes I'm battling his stage volume against the bigger picture. I don't bitch too much, except afterwards

 

The expectations are low, but I'd agree with a separate monitoring solution for the edrums.

 

I can bring on a bigger board if needed, though I'm dubious of throwing new challenges my way by adding more elements I'm not familiar with.

 

The e-drums will be one set only, so I'm not too concerned, especially where the drummer usually opts to control them via his own speaker/mixer setup (I was hoping to avoid that this time around).

 

Everything else will be much simpler, and the blue grass group are really easy to work with. They never ask for anything fancy just a monitor mix which mirrors FOH which they can hear. Solo/Duo are pretty much acoustic guitars and guys/gals sitting on stools. That's pretty easy.

 

Not too sure if subs are needed for this level.

 

 

[trevcda]

If you keep the bass (upright and electric) and e-drums completely out of your mix (mains and mons), make sure to use the "LIVE" and "100hz" roll off settings on your speakers and cover absolutely no more than you need to (that being in front of the stage and under the tent) at attentive audience listening levels, you might get away with it. Realize that if you get a whole bunch of bodies in front of the band that the sound may drastically change. If your maxed out during sound check, you will have no where to go from there. Know your systems limitations and know where that line in the sand is at. Cross at you own risk. Make sure that bass player and your e-drum guy know in advance that they will need to bring their own amps. Counting on it to happen without telling them is a recipe for a very long day. Maybe ask the people putting on the event to provide rows of folding chairs. A seated audience tends to be a more quiet audience and will police their own level so that their not competing with the music.

 

Other things you may want to consider- will you need direct boxes for any of the acoustic instruments? Are all of them going to have their own pre-amps? Do you have any eq'ing available for your one monitor send? With all of the acoustic instruments and the ever changing stage layout of musicians and monitors, you may need to cut a few frequencies here and there. Make sure you've got plenty cables and spares for those cables. Both XLR and 1/4" cables if you plan on going directly from guitars to the board. Someone always forgets their guitar cable or doesn't have on long enough to get to the board.

 

Above all, remember this is a free gig. You're already losing money by being there. Replacing damaged equipment and taking crap off anyone at a gig like this just adds insult to injury. Get things were you need them to be and relax and have fun.

 

Added: I didn't see any mention of a keyboard player, but a keyboard player with a heavy left hand or playing bass patches will be just as bad when it comes to low end in your system. Advance the show with all of your groups and find out what instruments and how many vocal mics you'll need for each group, so you know what to expect. Even on a small gig like this you may find that "Oh, yeah my uncle is in town and is playing a didgeridoo for us on this show, so we'll need a mic for that too." It's better to know ahead of time. It helps keep the surprises to a minimum. When you're making that phone call, it's a good time to let them all know that you X number of input channels to work with and only one monitor mix. Fewer surprises on their end.

[agedhorse]

How big do you expect the audience to be?

[StratGuy22]

Go to Long & McQuade and rent this:

 

https://www.long-mcquade.com/pdf/may15-pa%20rental%20rates.pdf

 

Soundcraft FX16II: $24

 

 

NX55P2: $12 x 6 = $72

 

 

LS720P: $19 x 2 = $39

 

EP1 crossover: $5

 

 

$140

 

 

Or if you have the room:

 

 

LS801p: $25 x 2 = $50

 

 

$151

 

 

 

 

 

Add a snake:

 

SN-164X: $14

 

 

 

you would need a pair of speaker poles, $2 each. I assume you have mics & stands. They could set you up with all the cableing you need. This will give you subs, tops & 4 monitors on 2 mixes (due to snake limitations) for under $200.

 

Put drums and bass on one monitor mix, and the other 2 on the second monitor mix.

 

 

It it will handle what you need and you will come off looking like a champ instead of wrecking your own gear trying to make it work.

 

$200 is probably less than any repairs you might need to make to your own gear if it gets ugly.

[Craig Vecchione]

Regarding your mention of the Line6 L3T. I did a review of the L2T/L3T, as well as the Line 6 mixer, and can definitely recommend them for outdoor events. Good sound, plenty of volume, and good pattern and throw characteristics. The versatility is awesome, as they can basically be used as FOH, monitor, or guitar/keys combo amp. The L6 Link feature makes setup an absolute breeze if you've got the mixer.

[StratGuy22]

Long & Mcquade Line6 rental prices for each:

 

 

 

M20D = $42

 

L2M= $14

 

L2T= $15

 

L3M = $20

 

L3T = $20

 

 

 

 

[Shaster]

I think the OP wants to keep things simple. I would tell the e-drummer to bring his own stuff, and don't mic him. I would also just use a couple of monitors in front - side fills on a small stage can mean someone is blocking the side fill.

 

If the event is small, then the E10P's could work, but try not to put bass or keys or drums through them. Last March I did an outdoor party in Palm Springs. There were about 120 people and we used E10P's for mains. They didn't throw very far (which happened to be a good thing) and I pushed them to their max. We only had vocals and sax in the mix. If you think you're going to need to put more than vocals in the mix, consider renting a couple of NX55's for FOH. Even YX15P's would be better than the E10P's in your case IMHO. Get a couple of E10P's for monitors and call it a day.

 

Would a sub be nice, yes, would a better board be nice, sure, but if you're unfamiliar with that stuff it could be more trouble than it's worth.

 

BTW I will sometimes use post fader aux sends for monitors BUT generally only on something like the lead vocal or on "micless" mixes. IME once I've got the lead vocal set (louder than everything else) I don't have to mess with it much from there. Just leave yourself at least 3dB of wriggle room in the monitors in case you do have to turn the vocal up. However, in a multi band set-up I would have to agree that a post fader aux mix is not desirable. In fact it's never desirable, but sometimes it's a necessary evil.

 

The Yorkville VGM 14 looked kind of interesting and I believe it has a switchable post/pre second aux. It looks easy to operate as well and even has a rudimentary GEQ, Might consider renting that. I was thinking of one for my boat cruises this year - probably not enough auxes though.

[Unalaska]

I think you can make it work with what you've got. Snake? Small things you'll need to make it happen:

 

 

 

table le for mixer/rack

 

eq for mains and monitors.

 

canopy for FOH

 

water

 

good shoes

 

cooler with some food in it

 

comfy chair

 

towels

 

plently of stands,

 

more xlr than you think you need

 

way more AC than you need

 

lighting (atleast for tear down)

 

 

[Dingoist]

There's a reason why I still visit this forum It's all good advice, even the mention that I'm already loosing money on this venture (I have local business sponsors which helps, but it doesn't cover the cost of trashed cables, etc).

 

The local L&M doesn't rent L6 gear, but the one across town might (I'll give them a call).

 

E10Ps for monitors, and potentially NX55s for FOH (though I've heard mixed things about the NX55s).

 

The L6 rig would be great, though I wouldn't trust myself to the M20D mixer without a couple of runs with it first in practice and enough time to get to know it.

 

The audience won't be big -- 50 to 100 people at a time perhaps covering a 20 x 50 foot space of tables and a small 3 row bleacher setup. I don't even have the community stage, so it's on the grass (I'm bringing plywood, so the monitors aren't directly on the ground), and I've some good portable tables. They are providing the tent, but I might bring my own 10x12 canopy just in case. I don't quite trust the organization. It's a shoe string village thing on a tight budget. It's a village of 4K people, and a 6 hour event, which I'm also lining up the musicians to cover 2-3 hours.

 

A lot about this event isn't my favourite things. Since I've started running some small venue music events in town, I'm now expected to be the music fellow to arrange musicians and even arrange for sound for community events. And honestly, I prefer to be on the sound board that up playing. I've been playing guitar and such for over 25 years but I really like being behind the board. I've got about a dozen mics, need more cabling though, a smallish board, but I don't generate enough income from this to warrant really getting into the gear that I'd like to, and having the expectations that I do this for free is a general bummer. I know it's a good cause and for the community and all, but the gear ain't cheap. Next year if I'm involved, I'll charge but this wasn't really planned well from me or the organizers.

 

At least I was able the other night to guarantee that I'd be close to power outlets

 

And Trevcda, there might be a keyboard player among them (in the same band as the troublesome edrum guy). I've already had emails from them about stage set up, and things they need Weee, this is going to be a bumpy ride.

 

I'll do the best I can on a limited budget and experience. And honestly, I'm using this as experience because I really dig it and would like to do more (but not at a loss though, and with a respectable setup that's appropriate).

 

 

 

[Unalaska]

Relax, you'll be fine.

[Shaster]

Dingoist - Unalaska's suggestion of lights, at least for tear down - good idea. I used to do a well paying, late summer outdoor event that was always scheduled to end around 6:30 pm. It always went later, and the first couple of times I was packing in the dark. More AC then you think you'll need - yep. Speaking of AC if you can label your AC and XLR cables (perhaps L&M velcro) and power bars. they might still walk away, but just in case there are honest folks, you might get them back. Home Depot sells velcro too - some okay, some not so okay.

 

The NX55P's won't blow the E10P's out of the water but they are much more forgiving if you're not using an EQ. The E10P's need cuts around 400 and 630 IIRC, and who knows where else - can't remember. Also the newer NX55P2's are apparently much better at retaining their "composure" at higher volumes than their predecessor.

 

There's a huge list of stuff you could bring (hat, water, sharpies, board tape, iPod, XLR/TRS adapters, Gaff and on and on, but wind socks for the mics might be something you haven't thought of. They've saved me on more than one occasion. They sell them at L&M, and previously they had them in different colours for easy mic identification. Just a thought.

 

Challenging yourself (gear wise) is a great way to learn, but don't go too far above your pay grade - then it's just no fun. Good Luck!

[Craig Vecchione]

The L6 rig would be great, though I wouldn't trust myself to the M20D mixer without a couple of runs with it first in practice and enough time to get to know it.

 

I certainly won't try to talk you into running it right out of the box! However, among the digital mixers I've reviewed, (M20D, Expression Si, Mackie D series) the M20D was definitely the most intuitively obvious mixer to set up and run. The stage view display concept is definitely different, but it actually does work nicely and as you'd expect. A bigger display would (of course) be nice.

 

 

[Dingoist]

Wind socks for mics... That I don't have. That I'll get.

 

Checked with L&M -- going with a pair NX55P for FOH, and a pair E10Ps for monitors. Got gaffer tape, etc. Tomorrow is 50% off rental day, I checked with what they had in stock today at lunch, and I'll head out first thing tomorrow to pick it all up. It also gives me time to check it all out, and make sure everything works as expected.

 

Going to get some volunteers to build me a 12x8 or 16x8 riser / small platform to keep things off the grass and for the drum kit (either that or I'll be out in the field the night before with my tools building it, I can put that together pretty quickly from plywood and 2x4s and I don't like relying on volunteers, it's another big unknown which probably won't be done right...). It'll be a tight stage for the larger band, but it's still mostly solo / duo players during the day.

 

The only thing I'm getting from the organizers is power and a tent (and the tent is an unknown, I have no idea what it will be like, so I'll probably pack mine and use whatever is better).

 

The good thing is if anything is missed, it's a 5 min walk to my house.

 

If I need more AC, I can run some out from the Barn which the "stage" is backed on to, on top of the external outlet next to the location.

 

It's over at 4, but if necessary I've got some halogen flood lamps for lighting.

 

 

 

 

[StratGuy22]

Pay the $4 for insurance on the rentals. Good luck!!

[Craig Vecchione]

Tarps for rain, and bungees to keep them in place if the rain comes with wind. Better to not need that $4 insurance.

 

Check your AC power. Have receptacle tester (the $4 thing that looks like a plug) and if you have a meter, it helps to read initial voltage as well as voltage under load. 120v is the top of normal, below 105v is cause for real concern. Check the service for a functioning grounding system. The location of the shut off (could be in the first power panel after the meter, or a shutoff switch right after the meter) is where there should be at least a #6 (about the thickness of an iPhone charging cable) solid copper wire firmly attached via a clamp, or welded, to a copper-plated ground rod. Yank on the wire at the rod. I've seen many simply slip out of a loose clamp (called a "Ufer") on the rod. A wrench or pliers can tighten this.

 

It sounds like an odd thing to be doing, but if the grounding system isn't working, especially outdoors, a short or leak will not trip a breaker, and you or someone could have a serious issue.

[Dingoist]

Good advice Craig,

 

I'll be making a list of things to check, and chances are I'll head over to the site even this week to over over details so there are no planning surprises.

 

BTW, after I checked stock yesterday and came in to pick up the pair NX55p today, someone came by and rented them all out (there were 6 in stock). I ended up with the ps12p's instead. Only few $ difference for the month rental.

 

Andrew

 

[Dingoist]

Quick recap -- things overall went well.

 

Small mix up with the fellow for the stage risers (he basically didn't show until I got someone to give him a call, so we didn't get them until about 20 minutes before the first act was to go on. Fortunately I was that first act, so it's all good there (sorta -- a band is on my poop list for being arseholes, and I didn't feel like fighting with them for putting their equipment on stage first though they were the last act, forcing everyone work around them. I didn't feel like fighting it since it was going to be a long day).

 

Actually, they were still setting up after I had speakers, tent, monitors and stage up and my set was to have started a while ago, that I just grabbed my guitar and mic, and stood in front of the stage and did the rest of my set, while they were still taking over the stage with their gear.

 

Oh yeah, and one them moved my guitar where I couldn't find it. WTF.

 

One of the bands was an utter PITA with equipment. For e-drums, he brought his own pair of 15" speakers as monitors , and then fed into a line out the main mixer. I had a hard time mixing FOH without being blasted by one of his independent monitors, which he had them pointed up towards up on 45 degree angle, and one right next to the mixing tent, so people wouldn't have heard them much anyway. He had intended to use them as an independent backline and not go through the board, but found his speakers pretty much could only throw about 30 feet before becoming intelligible and non-existent. 4 guys, 3 guitar amps, 5 mics, two keyboards, e-drums, a multitude of different guitars, some things going through their backline, others going in to the board. Utter freaking sound nightmare. But it sounded okay in the end.

 

One of the FOH speakers, starting cutting in and out intermittently during the day -- only for a couple of seconds, only to cut out completely midway through the last band. It wasn't heat, I wasn't driving it that hard, didn't need to, and wasn't a bad cable. Rental gear so it probably was toast before I got it. Most of the audience had gone home, and the band was already over the limit so I didn't care anymore, and had pissed me off. I just focused the right FOH to cover the audience still left hanging out in the shade and let it be. I had already been around for 8.5 hours in the hot sun and just wanted to go home.

 

The advice about shade, water and good shoes was spot on.

 

So was having a global EQ out to the mains. I wish I had it because I found the 12" parasource speakers a bit on the bright/harsh side -- while headphones and stage monitors sounded good, the mains needed taming. But the throw on them was fantastic. The sound was clear across the field. Initial drop off was at least 200-250 feet out. I was impressed. Also quite clear.

 

The little soundcraft board held up like a champ, and no complaints about monitors because I didn't give people a choice about what they got, I mirrored FOH.

 

Lesson learned?

 

1. It was fun but I have to learn to be more of a prick.

2. Bands have a set time to set up -- don't let them show up early and take over. See #1.

3. Firmly establish stage / tent requirements with organizers from the beginning. I shouldn't have had to track down the phone number of the guy to let us into the storage shed for the risers myself. See #1.

4. Drink lots of water ( I must've drank at least 2 - 3 litres of water yesterday) .

5. Be more of a prick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wesg]

Thanks - useful thread!

 

What do you own? Can you compare that with the PS12Ps you rented? I have six NX55Ps and love them a lot, but have been thinking about PS12Ps for FOH 2-3 years hence. I think the PS12P has a tighter dispersion pattern (longer "throw"). The NX55Ps sound great, IMHO, with no EQ at all. I haven't heard the PS12Ps. No L&M for a hundred miles.

 

Wes

[Dingoist]

Thanks - useful thread!

 

What do you own? Can you compare that with the PS12Ps you rented? I have six NX55Ps and love them a lot, but have been thinking about PS12Ps for FOH 2-3 years hence. I think the PS12P has a tighter dispersion pattern (longer "throw"). The NX55Ps sound great, IMHO, with no EQ at all. I haven't heard the PS12Ps. No L&M for a hundred miles.

 

Wes

 

I usually rent or borrow for bigger stuff, for the open mic I run, it's a Bose L1. (Don't make too much fun of me) Does what it does well. Has its limits and I try not to go beyond that (it does have serious limits don't get me wrong, I like it but it's only good for some certain circumstances which happen to be what I use it for), and some of them are when someone is in-experienced with a mic so since it's both FOH and monitor I'm combatting feedback to get them heard -- which wouldn't happen monitor + FOH, or a band that has an independent backline that is louder and has feedback inducing stage volume when trying to bring the mics up to match the backline. The blue grass band that I've run about a half dozen times now, likes how I get them to sound, so they're looking at reproducing my equipment for themselves to do weddings gigs and other stuff at that level.

 

But for other things I've been renting from L&M.

 

I must admit, I really dug the e10p's for monitors. Nice little sonnovabitches. Great sound. Wouldn't use them for FOH but great monitors, or small rooms for acoustic+vocal stuff. If I had the cash, I'd get two tomorrow for myself and ditch the Bose that I use for the Open Mic. I still might.

 

I'm just a Newbie though when it comes to sound stuff. I love it though. Just trying not to be a jackass, learn some stuff, and always get better. Never sell myself too high beyond my capabilities.

 

I don't want to be that guy that people shake their heads, and nod.... it's "that guy".

 

 

 

 

[wesg]

Interesting comments about the E10P. How easy are they to carry, compared to the PS12P (or NX55P)? I have been looking for something lighter than the NX55P that I can take to rehearsals for piano. I may just go for something cheap and super-light, though. Like those Mackies with the 5" speaker. Or maybe one of those Fishman things the guitar guys like. I should never have sold that Peavey Minx 110.

 

Make sure you check in with your L&M guys to find out when they clear out the rentals. There are deals to be made. I think most stores do it in February. Additionally, the Bloor St. store in Toronto has a big sale every September. Make sure you consider the NX55P as well. They are the same price as the E10P but also suitable for small-scale FOH applications. L&M rents a ton of them, they are available at every sale and you can usually to get them to budge down to $475 or so if you buy 2 or 3.

 

I'm trying to pound some extra money into my L&M account these days, I want to get the last of my gear paid off so I can buy subs in September. Thinking about a single LS801P. Would be nice if one came up on sale.

 

Wes

[agedhorse]

Sometimes you have to be "that guy" or you get crapped on at every turn.

[Dingoist]

Sometimes you have to be "that guy" or you get crapped on at every turn.

 

Considering I'm being now asked to help out with one of the bigger regional Fall harvest fairs this year to coordinate local talent, I must be doing something okay, or at least acceptable. Though they SE`s will be professionally paid people, and there will be lighting techs on hand, etc. I`ll be more bringing musicians on board, and coordinating the stage. I`ll learn a bunch from this.

 

I need to learn a little more about being a hard-nosed fellow. The less experienced rock-star wannabes were the most difficult to deal with. It`s hard to be a prick with some of them if I know them personally. But I`ll have to.

 

I was complimented one the sound I provided as being better than they are used to (not sure if that`s a high bar), but I`m still inexperienced and have a lot to learn. Much of it was listening, and trying to create a distinct mix where the lead instrument (vocals, harmonica, guitar, etc) at any given time was the most present, keeping the monitor mix where the musos were happy and taming the FOH to where I was happy. I could've done better. But I could've done a lot worse. I wouldn't go above this without a couple more runs at this level, and learning a bunch more.

 

But it`s pretty good that I`m being now asked to work with the organisers for regional talent for one of the bigger fairs in the region. Maybe I`m just the next sucker in line. That`s always a possibility.

 

 

[wesg]

Sounds like a good learning opportunity. I would leap at it if I had the chance.

 

re. managing the stage - telling musicians when they STOP is more important than telling them what their start time is. Musicians want to take their time setting up, and then play their full set. If their setup and stop times are clearly defined -- and you enforce the stop time -- things will go much smoother, and they will be motivated to setup quickly. Glares from the next band will help enforce the stop time. They will be encouraged to setup quickly if they know you are going to enforce the stop time. Tell them you will give them a five-minute warning and then cut the FOH. The first band you let overrun their time slot will ruin your entire day -- you'll never make up the time, and each band will play just one more song.

 

The best way to be a hard-nose is to NOT make it personal: "I have a schedule I have to stick to. Give the engineer in that tent your input list by 11:30. Your setup time is 12 o'clock. You get a five-minute warning at 12:40. I will walk in front of the stage and hold my hand up. The PA gets turned over to the DJ at 12:45. You are to be off the stage as fast as possible, because the next band starts at 1 o'clock. If you take too long getting off the stage, you are eating into the next band's time".

 

Wes