Drum Mic Allocation

[wesg]

I'm working with a sub drummer this weekend. This guy is extremely non-technical and does not own drum mics...he normally lets whoever is running sound do whatever they want. So I am renting mics and taking over that job.

 

The venue I'm working at on Friday is about the size of an aircraft hangar and has an excellent installed system. They supply mains, monitors, snake, console, and FOH tech. The procedure is for the band to mic up their cabs, drums, etc, and plug it all into the snake. The FOH guy then arrives 10 minutes before showtime, does a quick line check, and mixes the band as best as he can (while complaining about how they are set up and/or the equipment they own).

 

The kit the sub is bringing is pretty big. Three toms (8, 10, 12"), two floor toms, a million cymbals, one kick (two beaters), high hat, snare. I have secured four "clip on" drum mics (Apex?) and a kick mic, and U own two pencil condensers on a single boom, as well as a 57 on a short stand.

 

The question is: where do I budget the mics? My thinking is to clip one onto each small tom, clip one onto the higher-pitched floor tom as close to the other tom as I can, and then use the 57 to pick up snare and some high-hat. I'll try to mount the condensers right above the snare, and point one toward the floor toms and one toward the high-hat.

 

Is there a smarter way to use what I've got?

 

On a related note, is there a smarter way to mic up Congas than LP Claws and 57s? I'm trying to influence the conga player to make an investment in that direction...he is currently using poorly-aimed Behringer C2s and feedback is a problem unless we take them right out of the monitors (and then we can't hear them).

 

Wes

[agedhorse]

10 minutes before showtime? Talking about setting the sound guy up to take a bucket load of crap. Wow.

 

It would probably be in your best interest to pay the sound guy a little extra yourself to have him show up earlier so thet HE can do a better job, and maybe, just maybe do a sound check?

[wesg]

The venue pays their guy to show up an hour and a half before showtime. Doesn't mean he actually DOES. My guys are ready on time. Even if I was motivated to pay him extra to show up on time -- I don't know his last name, nor which Mike is scheduled to work that night. There are two, they both have the same people problems. Not slighting their technical prowess at all - the Mike I know best did the install and it sounds great. But getting them there on time seems to be a problem I can't solve (and it's not just my band with this problem).

[agedhorse]

The he doesn't take his trade very seriously. Too bad, for both him and you IMO.

[wesg]

Yep. Frustrating, but it's what I have to deal with in the short term. I've listened to lots of bands in there, and the mixes tend to be pretty good (although keys are always buried) by the end of the first song.

 

So back on topic, can I budget my mics any smarter? A friend who occasionally works sound at another venue suggested putting the 57 on the floor toms because I can get it to cover both of them better, and let to let a "clip on" mic handle the snare and hi hat. My thinking is to put the 57 on the snare and hat to make sure I have good center kit coverage. Bread and butter before caviar. Obviously I'm not going to be able to do much testing ahead of time, if any at all. "Point and Pray".

 

Or maybe I should see if I can find another short boom stand in stock in town somewhere and grab another 57 for the other low tom. How necessary does micing each drum individually tend to be on a somewhat loud stage, for low-frequency drums?

 

Wes

[agedhorse]

I happen to like the E604 on snare and toms, so go for it!

[DanCostello]

I wouldn't try to individually mic a kit that large w/ a 10-minute line check. Kick, Snare, and 2 overheads and call it a day.

 

Also, I hate it when venues expect bands to bring their own mics and cables, and having them patch themselves into the snake is moronic. I can sympathize with getting jaded over dealing with the same kinds of bands over and over again, but this level of apathy doesn't make things any better.

 

-Dan.

[mshifflett]

I happen to like the E604 on snare and toms' date=' so go for it![/quote']

 

Excellent mic for both. I always have great luck with them.

[Pro Sound Guy]

There is more then one way to skin a cat with a minimum amount of mics.

[flanc]

Do you have a channel limit? How many open vocal mics will you have.

 

For a t-10 minute line check, Kick Snare and OHs might make the most sense. For most modern music, I like close miced Toms that are gated and given time, I'd mic the Kick, Snare, Toms and expect the cymbals to bleed into the vocal mics (nix the OHs).

[wesg]

Interesting approaches. Actually makes me wonder what they've done in the past - if I was doing a 10 minute line check, I would prefer a 3-mic setup for the kit. I wonder if that's all they use? The band would never know the difference.

 

flanc - I don't know for sure what the channel limit is, I suspect it's 22 or 24. They have a Presonus digital board about 30" wide. When I do sound for the band, I use 22 channels, and I know they are good for at least 20 or I would have had to sacrifice something the last time I was there. The sub drummer uses 2 more toms than the regular guy.

 

I'm glad Andy mentioned the E604s. The rentals are a similar form factor. The E604s look like an excellent piece of kit at a good price. I think I'm going to put the three pack of my GAS list, along with an AKG D112. I expect that combination would also work well on my Leslie speakers. I'm hoping to make another large (for me) PA investment in February, and have my eye on subs and mics.

 

DanCostello - I also find it weird that they expect the band to patch into the snake. I've also watched the sound guy re-patch at the last minute because he didn't like the way the band laid out of the channels. That strikes me as a recipe for errors. As a band guy, I want the sound guy to work WITH me - advise on mic and monitor position, assign me my channels, etc. I've also suspected in the past that they get annoyed with larger bands. A significant proportion of the bands in that place are power trios. We're a five-piece with organ, other keys (submixed), congas, three guitars, and four vocalists with five vocal mics (one near the congas).

 

You know, now that I think about it - I'm surprised we get a good monitor mix out of that place. But we do.

 

Wes

[agedhorse]

I would recommend the D112 as better suited as a wheel chock to keep your truck from rolling during load-in.

[wesg]

Wow. I already have enough wheel chocks, so maybe I should look for something else. I was under the impression the AKG D112 was well regarded as a kick mic.

 

I want something that's pretty flat from 30 or 40Hz to 2K (for Leslie lower rotor), and sounds good on a kick with a hole in the resonator. Something like an RE20, only smaller and less expensive. Beta 52A, E902 and Audix D6 look ill-suited to Leslie applications on paper. I wonder if I'll be able to get away with one mic for two applications on this after all.

[agedhorse]

I have a like new Audio Technica ATM-25 available surplus, which is MUCH better for that application. In fact, probably better than the RE-20, less colored.

 

The D-112 looks like it would make an ok hammer, but it's not well suited to that application because of weight and balance.

[RoadRanger]

I want something that's pretty flat from 30 or 40Hz to 2K (for Leslie lower rotor)' date=' and sounds good on a kick with a hole in the resonator. Something like an RE20, only smaller and less expensive. Beta 52A, E902 and Audix D6 look ill-suited to Leslie applications on paper. I wonder if I'll be able to get away with one mic for two applications on this after all.[/quote']AKG P2 - it is flat and NOT pre-EQ'd like most "kick drum" mics. Its mic stand threads are plastic and the usual solution to prevent breakage is to glue in a US to European metal adapter - then use a European to US adapter assuming your mic stand is US threads. I just us a quick disconnect for mine. Awesome mic for miking an 810 cab . Just scoop out some 350Hz for kick (if needed).

 

I suspect it has the same "problem" as the D112 - needs a HPF to prevent your subs from ejecting their cones (and to prevent your sub amp from limiting on subsonics AKA wasting much of it power on frequencies your subs can't reproduce) .

[Pro Sound Guy]

The Audio Technica ATM-25 is a killer microphone.

LOVE it for kick drum

[RoadRanger]

Strangely enough there seems to be a trend towards cutting back on kit size around here. If the drummer brings one mounted and one floor tom I usually mic those, the kick, and the snare. There's usually enough vocal mics open to catch the cymbals and I often have the snare just in the 'verb (no "dry" in the mains). Even for lower volume gigs (AKA no earplugs needed ) where I might not even have subs - just a pair of RCF 310A's. They do OK with the toms and kick in them, even with 5 or 6 vocal mics and keys .

[wesg]

Andy - curious about the "less coloured" comment on the ATM-25. The response graph I found only shows a pretty serious (6dB?) boost between about 800Hz and 2k, a sensitive region for the Leslie lower speaker - they use an 800Hz 6dB/octave crossover, and part of the "charm" is the interaction between the upper and lower speakers in this range.

 

RoadRanger - interesting recommendation on the P2, thanks. It looks like a good mic for a Leslie lower on paper. If it works decently on kick it might be a good choice for me. The price is certainly very reasonable.

 

Wes

[dboomer]

Funny how gear gets stigmatized. I don't have any problem using a D112 or an ATM25

[RoadRanger]

Funny how gear gets stigmatized. I don't have any problem using a D112 or an ATM25

Me neither - but we've fought that one out here before . One "A" level drummer I've worked with has one installed in his kick - I didn't even show the slightest indication that it wouldn't have been my first choice . It's not uncommon for a drummer to bring his own pet kick mic IME and if that makes him happy I don't really care what it is' date=' I'll use it and "love" it [img']http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/core/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img].

 

Oh hey, just because we haven't had a good thread hijack in a while - how does the Line6 stuff do in co-existing with Bluetooth? I just picked up this cheaparse wireless tuner pedal that has a bluetooth dongle for your (bass) guitar - class 2 I'm guessing by its stated 10 meter range. Fun little $80 toy for rehearsals at least - I carry a tuner pedal anyways so it doesn't add to the crap I have to carry. BTW Shure has one too (several x as expensive), maybe Line6 soon ?

[Axisplayer]

Well if you want something flat, how does 30-40K HZ +/- 2 db sound? I am selling some Earthworks SR40HC (list is $1500 each) but mine is $375 and used about 6 times. It is another whole class of mic most folks never get to experience unless you have deep pockets. Sorry for the blatant ad. Gotta get rid of some of this gear now that I don't use it any more.

[agedhorse]

Andy - curious about the "less coloured" comment on the ATM-25. The response graph I found only shows a pretty serious (6dB?) boost between about 800Hz and 2k, a sensitive region for the Leslie lower speaker - they use an 800Hz 6dB/octave crossover, and part of the "charm" is the interaction between the upper and lower speakers in this range.

 

Wes

 

I think the graph you found for the ATM may have been wrong.

 

It's pretty flat down low, a couple db bump around 70Hz, a dB or two shallow dip between about 200 and 1.5kHz and about +6dB from 2k-4-ish kHz, which works really well with both kick and bass. Also works well for the low Leslie (mic'd maybe 9-12" from the rotor). That's what I used to use with Jimmy Smith, though I used to use a 421 with equally good results.

 

The problem with the D-112 is the roughly dB boost from 80Hz to 160Hz which is almost exactly where I DON'tT want it. bring it up to an inch from the head (which I don't like anyway) and that boost becomes +10dB. The polar pattern is also pretty wide and there's something withing the mechanics of the unit that couples the element t o the housing at some frequencies more than others. In the studio, much of this may not be an issue, and if you gate aggressively it's ok too.

[wesg]

Hi, Andy!

 

The graph I was looking at for the ATM 25 is this one -- http://eu.audio-technica.com/en/resources/3a606220384c71c4_atm25_freq.jpg?rand=729409613

 

The MD-421 also has a 1-2k boost, but it starts later and is not as pronouced. Maybe I am being too picky w.r.t. paper-specs? The MD-421 is very well-regarded as Leslie mic, in any position.

 

It must be nice to be able to mic Jimmy Smith's Leslie for 9-12" away. I prefer a little "air" between my Leslie and my mics, but that would never fly on my loud stage. I normally mic the bottom 1/2" from the louvres with the back of the mic pointing towards the keys monitor. Then I put my oversized briefcase (full of cables etc) 2" beside the louvres closest to the drum kit. The upper rotor gets close-mic'd also, and I use foam wind socks. Good thing I use socks, somebody (security?) bumped my mic stand on saturday night, sending the mic into the rotor. I expect the foam saved that horn. That was a 70s Leslie, so not bakelite, but still not hard to break.

 

I see what you mean about the bass boost on the D112. I didn't know if that would be a problem for kick or not. For MY Leslie, I high-pass my lower rotor at 80Hz or 100Hz. I can get away with that, because I know what tones I will be playing that night, and the filter helps with wind and motor noise, which can be exaggerated when mic'ing that close. Although, now that I look at that graph, I am having second thoughts there, too. The mic's response would be fighting what I am trying to do, and I find that I often need to carve out "stuff" around 150Hz with this band to get rid of mud.

 

Wes

[wesg]

I suppose I should quickly mention how I wound up allocating mics on Saturday night. Snare mic clipped on a 2 o'clock for snare and high hat. Clip-on between 8" and 10" toms not pointed very well. Clip-on on the 12" tom pointed at the head. Same tom mic between the two 14" toms mounted on a short stand sort-of covering both of them. Kick mic 1" in front of Kick Port, single overhead condenser above the snare.

 

It worked fairly well, I was surprised at the decent sound of the 8 and 10" toms in particular. I had actually planned to use a couple of 57s in there for the 14" toms, but had to re-plan at the last minute because the sub drummer's kit (which I had never seen before) had so many effing cymbals I couldn't figure out how to get them in there.

 

We had another drummer "sit in" on one tune (argh) and the drum kit owner took a walk out front to listen. He was satisfied with the FOH sound for everything but snare, so I guess that's something. He though the snare was "too dark", which sounds like an EQ issue to me. The mic was aimed about 1/2 of the way from the center to the rim.

 

Wes

[mshifflett]

I'm glad Andy mentioned the E604s. The rentals are a similar form factor. The E604s look like an excellent piece of kit at a good price. I think I'm going to put the three pack of my GAS list, along with an AKG D112. I expect that combination would also work well on my Leslie speakers. I'm hoping to make another large (for me) PA investment in February, and have my eye on subs and mics.

 

Wes

 

 

The E604 works well for many things. At one point I had three of them (with socks) rigged up inside a Leslie 122. One on the lower and two on the upper 90 degrees apart. It worked well but really was overkill and just experimental. They sounded great though for being that close. I still prefer a Sennheiser MD421 or two pointing at the rear of the cabinet.

 

Maybe look at other options for the kick though besides the 112. Shure Beta 52 is nice, as is Audix D6. There are a pile of other ones out there as well but those are two of the more common options and both work well.

 

And this is all just personal opinion of course.

 

I had to edit this because I just realized you were trying to get a dual purpose with the 112. Sorry, I should have read over this slower.