Members Tomm Williams Posted June 17, 2014 Members Share Posted June 17, 2014 How do you guys calculate the cost to add a seperate monitor board to an event? Of course that means another tech but what are all the considerations? I picked up a used Soundcraft Monitor2 32 channel for next to nothing so I'm a little curious what is a fair fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted June 17, 2014 Members Share Posted June 17, 2014 49003. Well, maybe not, but it's my favorite number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted June 17, 2014 Members Share Posted June 17, 2014 Sorry. Couldn't resist. I am going to guess that you treat that position as another PA. If you charge $250 for you PA, then charge $500 for PA with separate monitor mixer. Maybe a little less. Maybe $400 for all of it. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted June 17, 2014 Members Share Posted June 17, 2014 I would say that you're charging more for the value added feature, and the extra time in splitting the signal and then maintaining the monitor mix. Unless you're normally charging per piece, it might be more about charging for an extra level of "professionalism". I know of people that do monitors and get paid a whack of money because the band deems a great monitor mix as essential. If this is the case with any particular gig, then as I said, it's more about that extra something, and whether they need, or are willing to pay for it. Or you could just add up the tech's costs, your extra time and the old 2 to 3 percent of new cost (or whatever your formula is).) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted June 17, 2014 Members Share Posted June 17, 2014 My above post is based on my assumption that you normally provide monitors and are just adding a monitor desk and tech, and extra set up time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted June 18, 2014 Members Share Posted June 18, 2014 I'll suggest that my first addition of a monitor desk proved to be one of my more costly undertakings. Likewise, I picked up my first monitor desk "pretty cheap", but then I had to get a case for it, then a splitter snake, and then enough decent quality matched 1/3 oct. EQ's for the desk's monitor mixes (eight), and then bi-amped wedges and a tri-amped drum fill and then side fills, and enough cabling to do the job with flexibility of working on a wide variety of stage sizes, which lead to getting into the realm where power distros were a must, and a clear com system, and a big enough truck to haul it all, and then with all this capability came riders, and then set-up time and available qualified labor became an issue which lead to spending big bucks and a lot of shop time on multipinning connections and streamlining everything I could. I dunno... monitor boards are a bit like zucchini seeds to me... they're both seemingly cheap and innocent enough looking on their own... till you actually put them into service... then they quickly seem to "take over" and can get out of hand real quick. What to charge for "throwing in a split monitor mix"? I really "depends"... and that can vary wildly on a lot of stuff beyond simply "the extra board". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted June 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 18, 2014 Those are valid points if one decides to take it that far. I already had 4 dual 31 band EQ's and pretty good wedges with plenty of amps to run it all. My need for the board has been two events that require I have one to bid on the events. Although large events, they don't mandate bi-amped wedges. I've never deployed a monitor mixer so I realize I have a bit of learning to do. However I can't help but think it will make monitor mixing easier just because it's easier to communicate from side stage than 200' away. This board also provides me with more aux's than my current FOH board freeing those up for other uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted June 18, 2014 Members Share Posted June 18, 2014 Those are valid points if one decides to take it that far. It's a slippery slope Tomm... easy to get sucked in to the vortex. Before my first monitor board (Yamaha 2408 as I recall), I was a fat, dumb, and happy one-man-show band in a van sort. My need for the board has been two events that require I have one to bid on the events. I'll suggest that's exactly how I planted my first foot on a banana peel on "the slippery slope to the vortex". However I can't help but think it will make monitor mixing easier just because it's easier to communicate from side stage than 200' away. This board also provides me with more aux's than my current FOH board freeing those up for other uses. And that's the same banana peel that found it's way under my second foot. Just saying. But it is likely a textbook ways and means to put you in a whole nother market that doubtfully would otherwise present itself. Oh... and I'll suggest it will take an assistant to run a split mix as you can't run both boards at the same time (well... you sort of can depending on the boards), and it's likely easier to come-up with someone who will sit at FOH than at the monitor position... so you'll likely be the monitor mixer dude... that's how it worked out for me... much like I can hire folks to do what I like to do with my day job... so I clean the company toilet on my weekends... cause I can't hire that done cause nobody likes dealing with bathroom duty... and on that note: yes... communication between the stage performers and monitor engineer is "easier" (facilitated) than long distant with a FOH engineer, so you'll likely field more quantity and more challenging communication from the stage performers sitting stage-side at the monitor mix position than you would out at a FOH mix position. Oh, and ground loops generally become more of an issue with split mixes, and figure "some" to "considerably more" soundcheck time generally with a split mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted June 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 18, 2014 I would be laughing over the unintended humor in this if I didn't know how accurate it all is. There are a couple of things that I think makes my slippery slope a bit more flat. First is once I get more than about 100 miles outside my home base, there are big boys to compete with. So big that in my wildest dream I couldn't keep up. This causes me to carefully assess items before purchase. Even though I'm quite happy with my wedges, as my clientele progresses, I begin to see how exacting they want their monitor feeds. Some of these acts see a lack of a dedicated monitor board as amateur in nature. True or no, seeing as I already had the EQ's , amps, etc...... The board (at the price I got it) seemed like a logical step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted June 18, 2014 Members Share Posted June 18, 2014 Mark is right on, and maybe that's why I don't offer a mon console with most gigs. And lately if there is a mon console I'll run both even if there's 75ft of distance between. Couple thoughts: every gig needs good clean power with no issues, I use passive splits only and always am careful about good power. FOH gets a LOT easier with a mon console. 10:1 compression on vocals? Sure! Make sure you can still run mon from FOH, I've seen plenty of guys who suddenly can't scale back and are stuck taking a massive truck to every gig now, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted June 18, 2014 Members Share Posted June 18, 2014 So I'm gonna relate what was happening in Vancouver BC back in the Rent Rock days of the eighties and nineties. There were dozens of Top Forty "A" rooms that all required a minimum of 16 but usually 24 lights and spot and fogger, full Martin PA or equivelant with a Soundcraft board and tons of processing and generally four to six monitor mixes with amps and EQ for each one. Most (but not all) monitor mixes and splits were done using those old Peavey six mix boards. Although I wasn't running an "A" room PA, I did have one of those Peavey boards. The average rental rate for a $30 to $40k PA in those days was $300 to $350 for a five to six days a week gig, with the one day corporate event price usually the same - tech not included. If one was just running the monitor rig (because the club had FOH) then it was typically $150 for the week. I don't recall anyone running a separate monitor guy on that circuit, although many bands (including mine) had a separate lighting guy or girl. The monitor board was always set up on stage with the monitor amps, and configured at the much too lengthy sound checks. Then it sat there and functioned mainly as a splitter. None of the bands that I can recall, would have paid extra for a monitor guy, so whether the monitors were run from the FOH board (if possible) or from an inert monitor board, all we cared about was more me in the monitors. That's why I'm saying, that you can't really charge extra for the board, but depending on the gig, you might be able to charge more for a separate person that babysits the musicians on stage, and with that feature, pushes your perceived level of production up the ladder. If you were previously running monitors from FOH and now you personally run them from the side of the stage, what's the difference to the band? I guess they would be happy at sound check, and then unhappy when you couldn't get to the monitor board. That's why others have suggested running them from FOH if you don't have a separate tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 19, 2014 Members Share Posted June 19, 2014 I charge whatever I could get. If it costs me more then it cost the client more. That's how the world works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted June 19, 2014 Members Share Posted June 19, 2014 what's the difference to the band? The difference for me is that usually when monitors are done from FOH with an unknown at the wheel, we'll usually get a monitor mix that we can live with during sound check. That's "live with", not "love" or even "like". And by the time the first song is done and the gains are all readjusted and the channel eq screwed seven way from sideways, the monitor mix has gone from "live with" to "useless", making blending impossible and causing me to over sing to be heard. Not always but often. Not so with a separate monitor mixer. Even if it's set and forget, it's the same no matter what Knobby McTwisterpants is doing out front. I put together a 16x6 A&H system with eqs, splits, amps and patch panels years ago so that even in the worst of situations out front I could ensure that we could hear ourselves. Not intended for throw and go shows, but it makes a difference. Tomm- Even if someone paid you to take the monitor board it's still an added value to transport, provide and operate it, along with everything that Audiopile said. It is an effort and should be monetized as such. Don't undersell that added service. Pencil it out and figure what you need to charge to make it break even and add a calculated percentage, just like any other product. It's never going to be as easy as it seems and has the potential to eat into the profit of the gig as a (w)hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted June 19, 2014 Members Share Posted June 19, 2014 A lot depends on how you have your rig put together, and how much help you usually have. When I started with analog console and snake, and was a one man operation, adding that monitor board would have cost them a good bit of money. More gear and more help adds up. I was not set up to accommodate those sort of things quickly or easily. As the system grew things changed. I went digital at FOH with a digital snake. Then I bought a spare digital console for backup. As lighting increased, I added another helper to make setup easier. At that point, adding a monitor console was as easy as adding the second console into the digital snake path and having the helper, who would normally be setting around during the show waiting for load out, run that console. It was good training for him too. We would do soundcheck and before the show, we would save both console settings into each board (love being able to load shows with overwrite protection for specific things.) I liked it because if either board went down, you could take over both functions on the same board within about 30 seconds. I got extra utility out of the backup gear, and that paid for the backup system. It was already at every show, so may as well use it and charge for it. I just tacked on dollars for the extra goodies so that the customer never felt like everything was free, because then the request will get out of hand. Build your system with thought about every aspect of your production, and these things get easier and quicker to accomplish…while making you more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 19, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Look around your area and see what a similar setup is going for, and charge accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted June 19, 2014 Members Share Posted June 19, 2014 The difference for me is that usually when monitors are done from FOH with an unknown at the wheel, we'll usually get a monitor mix that we can live with during sound check. That's "live with", not "love" or even "like". And by the time the first song is done and the gains are all readjusted and the channel eq screwed seven way from sideways, the monitor mix has gone from "live with" to "useless", making blending impossible and causing me to over sing to be heard. Not always but often. Not so with a separate monitor mixer. Even if it's set and forget, it's the same no matter what Knobby McTwisterpants is doing out front. I put together a 16x6 A&H system with eqs, splits, amps and patch panels years ago so that even in the worst of situations out front I could ensure that we could hear ourselves. Not intended for throw and go shows, but it makes a difference. . In my view, you're talking about something different. You're talking about a band that carries and adjusts their own monitor board and splitter. My point was that if Tomm usually runs pre fader monitors from his board, but then instead added pre fade (and pre EQ) monitors from the side of the stage, but without a monitor guy, how much difference would that be to the band? From personal experience, when I'm in a band, I would rather have the FOH guy in control of the monitors than no one. In other words, if the band does not have access to the on stage monitor board, then that situation can be worse then FOH run monitors. I worked as a muso in a club with a very nice system. Adamson front end A&H GLsomething, JBL component monitors with an A&H monitor board on stage. When the monitors were good, it was great, but if the band started the set and the monitors were not so great, we had to wait until the set ended to correct them. So my real question, to the question of how much extra could Tomm charge for his monitor board would be, how much (without a tech) would it improve his perceived production level. Or to put it another way, will anyone pay much extra for a monitor split system (without a tech). Anyway if he needs to have a separate monitor system in order to submit bids, then I guess he has to do it. Craig's idea of searching for prices in his area is valid, and a good starting pint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted June 19, 2014 Author Members Share Posted June 19, 2014 Shaster maybe I wasn't clear (wouldn't be a first) the only time I would deploy a monitor mixer is with an operator. If it's just me, I'll do it from FOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted June 20, 2014 Members Share Posted June 20, 2014 Shaster maybe I wasn't clear (wouldn't be a first) the only time I would deploy a monitor mixer is with an operator. If it's just me, I'll do it from FOH. I think you might have said something to that effect, but I was wandering off the beaten path. In your above stated case, the extra you charge wouldn't be solely for the board, but rather the increased level of production. That's something that would be based on what you charge for your rig sans monitor split and tech. IMHO, if you and your rig are $500, then anywhere starting at $250 (and up) extra for tech and gear, might be in the bid winning ballpark. BUT I don't generally submit bids. I've reviewed bids from the band side, but I'm the low pro guy with okay gear. You're looking at the next level or two up, so my comments should be taken with a grain of salt and all that jazz. Again IMO, I guess it would depend on how well you could sell the additional production, and what the comparable rates are in your area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 21, 2014 Members Share Posted June 21, 2014 Mark briefly mentioned an IMO important detail that should go along with this sort of system. Communications. I'd recommend picking up a pair of clear-coms & a master supply but if that's too costly, at least get yourself a pair of good loud clear radios (once you start looking at Kenwwod & Motorola you might find clear com more cost effective :-). FWIW there are a couple of lower priced, clear-com compatible alternatives out there that will still do the trick. Communication between stage & FOH though is essential (even having a third comm for a production manager or LD might not be a bad idea). Just some thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted June 21, 2014 Members Share Posted June 21, 2014 Speaking of comms - has anyone tried using an instant messaging program? IME, at loud rock shows, it can be hard to hear the comm system w/o setting it high enough to blow your ear drums out. And if everyone's got a computer at the desks these days, seems like it might work. ??? -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted June 21, 2014 Members Share Posted June 21, 2014 As far as what to charge? I say whatever the market will bear and keep busy enough to justify owning the gear... but... the secondary question might be how to pencil out the viability of the service? I have a "simple formula" for penciling out the viability: Admittedly you gotta jump in the pool to go swimming... but once you're swimming you can take stock of the situation and determine how long to keep it up. So jump in the pool, see what the market will bear, then take stock of the situation. I'll suggest here's my formula for penciling the worth of the venture: 1) You gotta cover your out of pocket costs... which is whatever labor, travel expenses, incidentals and consumables associated with taking that tool out and putting it into service. Concerning labor: Figure 1.5X to 2X the hourly rate you pay your employee. Plus: 2) Concerning wear and tear and depreciation on the gear: Less than 1% of the fair market value of the gear involved per gig and likely your going backwards. Over 2% and you're likely going forward. Plus: 3) Management value: Your time messing with this has got to be worth something... because you could be working for a paycheck that somebody else writes, and if you're not writing yourself a similar paycheck for similar work... sooner or later you'll figure out this ain't working out so well. This aspect should be considered an "expense" even if it's functionally not. Plus: 4) Profit and/or return on investment. In my opinion, the definition of a job is doing something for somebody else that they're willing to pay you to do because the either can't or won't do it for themselves. And if you're going to buy something somebody else wants but won't buy, and bring it to a gig because they won't do that for themselves, and operate it, and fix it when it's broken, and replace it when it wears out or becomes obsolete, and store it when it's not at a job site, and pay property taxes for owning it, and pay to insure it, and pay, pay, pay to be in business to supply that which others would prefer to pay you to do what you do, and they either can't or don't want to do for themselves... then you should make some money doing so. This aspect should be considered an "expense" even if it's functionally not... because you could hand the investment capital to an investment manager and get 5% - 7% above inflation dividends while doing nothing more than sitting next to a pool in a chase lounge chair and watching the checks come in.... so actually working hands on with the business venture should return something more than having somebody else play with your money, take their professional cut and send you the left over profits. Adding it all up: I'll suggest that if the "cost" of upgrading to a split mix figures out to be some X amount of dollars per gig and the local market will bear something above that... carry on. If it's the other way around... get out of the pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted June 21, 2014 Members Share Posted June 21, 2014 Interesting thread. I also offer a split and mon console when the situation looks like it needs it. The cost goes up though. Then there are bands where they really need 6+ mixes and not know they should be on a mon console even if it's just me running it. I don't mind doing both consoles, it's not that hard to me but I couldn't expect anyone on my gear to handle it so well. I lieu of a mon console I'll upgrade consoles to get 6 mixes and work within those limitations if the client doesn't want to pay the extra cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 21, 2014 Members Share Posted June 21, 2014 I like mark's suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 22, 2014 Members Share Posted June 22, 2014 Just a small addition to my earlier post about Communication. When I said you might even want to get an extra Com Unit for a production manager or LD. Hide it and only offer it after you've decided if you like them (just a joke here :-). No really, sometimes it's hard to keep yourself in the proper frame of mind if you can't make sarcastic comments about the show because someone from the artist's management is listening in (you also might not want them to hear you snoring) . Just a funny comment about some of the things that come up during a show operation. This probably belongs in the Famous Stories thread and is surely OT but one time we were doing this very involved, poorly planed, uber artistic sort of show (some rich kid with a brand new degree in theatre arts/drama's dream). It was truly awful and tedious. During a tech rehearsal our LD starts getting frustrated and shouting obscenaties and personal affronts at the alleged artist thinking that from his crows nest light booth no one can hear him. Well in an empty room........... the producer/artist (this IS questionable) casually says to me "does he know we can hear him?". Suppressing a smile with all of my might, I had to jump on the clear com and ask him to keep it down. The next day there was a solid half hour of belly laughs over the incident amongst the crew :-). Speaking of communication........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 22, 2014 Members Share Posted June 22, 2014 I once fell asleep mixing FOH at one of those uber artistic multi-act snooze jazz gigs. It was a 2600 seat venue, 7am call, well sold show and about 3 hours into the 7pm show I do a header onto the control surface. Damn did that hurt. Took a divot out of my forehead and kind of freaked me out. A patron behind the mic position nicely asked me if I was ok, to which I sheepishly answered "I hope so". Afterwards, ushers had to wake up patrons that were sound asleep. There was no way we could have driven home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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