How much information in the stage plot?

[wesg]

So, from Mark(?)'s previous post, I know I don't need to bother to mention that most feedback occurs at 400Hz.

 

I have a small-time bar band that occasionally hires sound, and occasionally works with venue sound. Is something like this helpful to those folks in general? My goal is to establish a positive relationship with the sound provider, give him information he needs, and let him do his job.

 

 

I didn't include mic preferences, because we don't really care, and aren't in a position to make demands.

 

I bring my own vocal mic (Beta 58) and mics for Leslie in case the provider is short. I also carry a Behringer MX882 which will work as 6 matching amplifiers, in case he's short on DIs (at my level they usually have one or two at the venue). I can plug unbalanced into the MX882 and go balanced out into the snake. When I am doing the sound, we just run everything right into the board, except the acoustic guitar.

 

Is the advice re. Leslie EQ and piano HPF too much?

 

Wes

[Pro Sound Guy]

Curious. Why the low and high cuts on the Leslie? I have put mics on many a leslie and have not seen this.

 

[Tomm Williams]

Short answer is yes, that would be very helpful.

[dbMontana]

Wes: that would indeed be very helpful information to have up front. I'd frankly take the EQ tips under advisement as opposed to a stated mandate but welcome the suggestion nonetheless. My normal venue is so small-time/low-key I rarely even know how many artists will be on stage if it's a regional band I'm not familiar with. YouTube often is my only tool for preparing so info like you provide would be a huge improvement.

[Dogoth]

That looks great. I agree with what dbmontana said about recommending vs demanding. A couple of things I noticed are, names are OK but better to put their instrument instead (on one nighters I don't remember names but if the DRUMS needs more kick.........). I see you have icons and you have correlated it in the input list but the names on the plot are not needed (besides what if you're playing with a substitute for the night?). Also AC drop locations are useful info (even if you provide your own, it gives them an idea of what you need). In the lower section where you have sort of an input list, state if you bring your own mics, DI,s etc (and what they are) as it will expedite pre wiring & some decisions. You could also include recommended mics & mic stand types (understanding that you might not get them - doesn't hurt to ask).

 

Overall, I'd be happy. At least it's not up side down (with the stage apron on top). That drives be batty :-).

 

Good job

[Audiopile]

Including a monitor mix list can be useful.

 

Including "guaranteed to work" contact info on the stageplot and input/monitor mix list also "couldn't hurt".

 

I agree about including mic & stand type preferences... and keep to "standard stuff": SM-58's on the vocals, SM-57 on snare, D6 on kick drum... that sort of thing. Couple of reasons for this: Any sound contractor who can't comply would be "unsettling" (to me anyway), and secondly those who can comply (being likely most that are worth their salt), are given assurance that you folks are "straight-forward professionals to work with".

[loco_p_man]

Oh dear - just got into a band where we actually need to submit a tech spec for the gig next Saturday - did the best I could, but the stage plot was "upside down", sorry Dogoth ! Another learning filed away for the future.....

[Shaster]

Contact info! Maybe the only thing that really matters. I will look at a stage plot but like to verify it as well - and don't just put your email, put cell phone numbers and land line (or a back-up cell) please.

 

Also your icons look nice but I personally would rather have the instrument name with a block line around it. It's more specific and won't chew up printer ink - those icons look dark and ink hungry. No problem for a larger co but for a small or cheap provider they might cause a scowl.

 

I agree as well, that I don't want band member names just instruments. I would also put the EQ tips below everything else, with an explanation that the EQ tips are ones that have worked in the past for your specific style of band. Featured prominently like they are, they will probably be ignored, as they seem arrogant - just my opinion of course.

[agedhorse]

I want band member names so that I don't have to say "hey you" when setting up monitor mixes and handling sound check.

[Audiopile]

I want band member names so that I don't have to say "hey you" when setting up monitor mixes and handling sound check.

I agree, and in-fact I've worked with a few bands and with a few stage crews that had the good sense/consideration to wear nametags on lanyards during sound checks.

[wesg]

Thanks, guys! Some *great* feedback there!

 

PSG - Leslie cuts were suggested to me by a friend with "Golden Ears" (you have heard him if you like soul), although checking my notes, he said 10k not 8k for the high-end roll-off. The basic idea is to cut out everything where there is no signal. The Leslie's two speakers use a second-order crossover at 800Hz, and there is no signal at all from organ above 6300Hz, except maybe key-click transients. I am not a key-click guy. But there is wind noise and motor noise you want to get outta there...and severe bleed from the cymbals. I also don't play bass pedals, nor really low notes, so the low cut on the lower rotor really helps.

 

How do you guys label the guitar players without names? Left Guitar, Right Guitar I guess?

 

Wes

[Dogoth]

I want band member names so that I don't have to say "hey you" when setting up monitor mixes and handling sound check.

 

I usually gleen this info at setup or sound check and write it on the tape strip. I agree it's more personable OTOH it makes for yet another translation step in your brain when requests are flying at SC. When someone says, I need more of Bruce & Sheila in my wedge, I have to look down and remember who they are and what they play. I REMEMBER where I patched Bass & Vocal so if someone says, I'd like more bass & vocal in my wedge, it's just faster. I'll certainly work either way but it's kinda like a digital speedometer vs analog, the analog one is quicker (no translation required :-). I've learned rather than "hey you" I say F.I. sending kick to SR guitar. Sometimes I remember their names but no one ever seems offended if I don't (they get mine wrong all of the time and I don't mind a bit :-). I even often have a little speech at the top of SC where I say, "due to poor memory, I may not remember your names so If I just call out your instrument, I hope it's OK". That usually keeps it still in a friendly mode :-).

 

to LOCO_P_MAN. That's just a pet peeve of mine. I'd say 95% of all plots are set up from FOH perspective (with down stage, down). It's not anything unworkable and I don't think anyone will really think its all that bad. It's more a standardization thing. Hey I've done national acts with a stage plot, that appears to be hand drawn on a napkin (that DOES make me think less of them :-). It's all good :-)

 

just my .02

[FormerlyBassred]

Mine includes info and pictures like that, but is a stage position, players name, Items needed - and there is similar information in the back-line area.

 

I think EQ needs/considerations are bunk, I've seen too many that were assessed on crap systems - to be honest, if I'm the sound guy, don't tell me my system is crap like yours until you've heard it... If the drum pads hiss, the person responsible for them should have a gate or some other fix already set up, that should not be on the sound person (unless everyone is going to have full-function digital consoles or giant racks of extra gates/etc... )

 

Just the (Complete) basic needs, reallly. Anything else and you start to lose grace with the crew before they even meet you...

 

 

 

[wesg]

Good points on the drum pad. Maybe I should pick up a 1U rack for it and something that can gate, like a DBX166...when I'm running the board, I just mute the stupid thing when it's not in use. I'm also looking for a 1-channel stereo rack mixer, so I can use our MX400 on the piano without plugging it into the mixing board.

 

Leslie EQ settings are largely provided because I have never actually worked with a sound guy (that I didn't know personally) who knew what a Leslie speaker WAS. The usual question is, "Where is your direct out?". Then, "Can't we just plug into the organ?" ... my assumption is that if you don't what it is you're reinforcing, you're not going to do the best job possible...especially as I can't think of any other amp that is normally bi- or tri-miked.

 

Any tips for getting the piano to be run without an 80Hz low-cut, without explicitly telling them that I need it that way? I play notes lower than that. That has also been a problem in the past. Would I be better checking and complaining at sound check?

 

Wes

[wesg]

Hmm, maybe I should provide EQ suggestions in person? That way I can assess the level of knowledge before saying anything. I have to help set up the speaker anyway -- i.e. "this is signal from the low speaker" ... "this is signal from the high speaker" ... "this is signal near the crossover point" ... they need to sound balanced out front, you can't do that without ears at the FOH, the mic positions are too different to guess by gain.

[witesol]

It's a decent stage plot. Maybe It's because I'm tired but I really want to look at the plot and know right away: how many piece band and where they are placed, who's singing, where DIs, who needs a wedge. How many mon mixes expected is important.

 

On this plot I don't really want to try and figure out that's a drum pad up front, whatever that is next to the hammond, or that the center guitarist plays acoustic and electric.

 

I like to see some simple statements too:

4 piece drum kit, no vocal

bass amp with dir out, no vocal, wedge needed

Center guitar mic'd amp and acoustic DI needed, Lead vocal and wedge. Plays drum pad, DI needed

Guitar stage left needs mic'd amp, vocal and wedge

Hammond organ with Leslie(typical top and bottom mic'ing), vocal, wedge needed

4 monitors on 4 mixes(if possible) for the front line players.

 

..or,

we are:

drums, bass, two guitars, hammond, 4 vocals up front and the middle guitarist needs two DIs.

 

...that kind of stuff helps. You had no drummer monitor?

 

I don't need EQ or mic'ing tips. I usually decide how to mic the instruments on a per band/show basis. A lot of this depends on what level show's you're doing I understand.

[Audiopile]

Leslie EQ settings are largely provided because I have never actually worked with a sound guy (that I didn't know personally) who knew what a Leslie speaker WAS. The usual question is, "Where is your direct out?". Then, "Can't we just plug into the organ?" ... my assumption is that if you don't what it is you're reinforcing, you're not going to do the best job possible...especially as I can't think of any other amp that is normally bi- or tri-miked.

 

Any tips for getting the piano to be run without an 80Hz low-cut, without explicitly telling them that I need it that way? I play notes lower than that. That has also been a problem in the past. Would I be better checking and complaining at sound check?

 

~~Hmm, maybe I should provide EQ suggestions in person?

 

Wes

Based on the above then Humm... yes... I suggest "keep it simple, clean, and professional" with the stageplot packet. I'd suspect it will be easy to overwhelm and/or come across as prima donnas with what might be received as micromanaging type details in the stageplot packet. I suspect that the simple fact that you're advancing a stageplot packet will likely offer you some credibility capital which will likely afford a natural opportunity to "offer some sage tricks and tips" in person.

[Shaster]

I guess names are a preference thing... I once worked in a band with four Paul's (no lie). The drummer, bassist, keyboard player, and trombonist were all named Paul. Consequently, they were addressed by their instrument names. In fact, I once worked with a horn player that called everyone by their instrument names - he just couldn't remember our given names!

 

I know that in festival checks, when I'm the musician, I'm always called by my instrument - and kind of prefer that. Certainly however, names are nice in a multi day run or intimate club/theatre setting, or at a national act level. For instance, it's better to say Lee, than "the bass player" when you're talking about Leland Sklar.

[DanCostello]

I'm terrible with names and at the level I typically work at (i.e. low), I can usually get away with forgetting them. I'll also just refer to people by their instrument + their stage location if necessary (e.g. stage left guitar).

 

Regarding the stage plot, ditch the eq settings altogether. If you're at a gig where the desk has variable HPF and LPF (i.e. either a digital desk or a better analog one), chances are that the engineer has better ears than you anyways.

 

If you have to put on your plot that your percussion pad hisses, then you should either fix it, replace it, or adjust the gain staging within it so that the hiss isn't noticeable. A DI'd instrument is the last thing you should have to gate.

 

-Dan.

[FormerlyBassred]

Here is our plot - there is an input list that is a separate document but is sent with the stage plot.

 

For the EQ suggestions, I'd see how they do with micing the Leslie and if they seem confused or if one of the band members can go out to the audience area and give a heads-up if there is an issue, then approach the sound guy with 'we've found that.....' and get into the possible EQ solves, or the balance of the two mics.

 

For the gate, you could use a comp/gate if yo uhave one, or just a noise suppressor pedal (if you are using a 1/4" output) would do the job.

[agedhorse]

ALWAYS label the front edge of the stage... while it might seem somewhat obvious in some setups, there are some that are not so obvious and it helps to draw so that the front edge is at top of the sheet. labeled as such too. That way you don't get a repeat of what happened a month ago where we set the stage up backwards becuse the drummer really was downstage center instead of the more traditional upstage. Embarrasing for both us and the band.

 

I'm doing a couple of low level Nashville acts, light duty stuff. Have worked with 1 act before, nice guys. No stage plots, 1 short e-mail from both bands and it's all taken care of. Simple, easy and effective. I don't get to do lower pressure gigs that often anymore and am looking forward to it. Of course, they are part of a 7 system installation we are doing, but we install well in advance and there's not much for me to do during the day when they play, other than the headline show each night with one of them performing a couple of songs between rodeo type acts.

[Craig Vecchione]

If you're going with a pictorial plot, make it big enough to put name, instrument, and details at each player's location. Any monitor mixes that are in common could be indicated there as well. For me at least, it's far faster and easier to look at the spot where the muso stands and see what pertains to him or her.

[Audiopile]

Any monitor mixes that are in common could be indicated there as well.

With Craig's suggestion, I'll add that one thought I have and I've seen before is including 2, 4, and 5 (in your case) by monitor mix lists with your stageplot packet.

[Dogoth]

I agree, and in-fact I've worked with a few bands and with a few stage crews that had the good sense/consideration to wear nametags on lanyards during sound checks.

 

Now I gotta admit that's cool. In that case, even my couple of working brain cells could remember who's who :-).

 

Sort of a reverse of that, I have seen (and thought it a good idea) a monitor guy that had his name printed in large font and posted on the doghouse of his board. Those kind of things really do help.

[nousername]

I might be working at the lowest level of any of you. It's mostly local cover bands, who don't know a proper mic check technique from a hole in the ground. When a B level act comes through it's like my job is suddenly normal and not fraught with frustration.

 

I request stage plots from them, and most are acceptable, or maybe come with a couple edits. Generally though, they aren't asking for a ton of anything. "Mic what you need, get us what you can into the monitors." I think every venue is going to react differently to a more detailed plot like you've offered. Some will be offended or some will be glad you sent it. Most things like this are so subjective.