Members Tomm Williams Posted March 23, 2014 Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 Have a few events each year with the local symphony. On one of their events, I commonly have a bit of a problem getting the strings in the mix due to their proximity to the horn section. Mic'ing has been a little problematic for a few reasons. Was wondering how it might work if I put a few of the strings on AT3000's wireless headworn theatre mics Seems that it would pick the instrument up very well.....................in theory.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted March 23, 2014 Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 Seems that it would pick the instrument up very well.....................in theory.. But not so much the section. Unless you have enough to mic a significant portion of it. IMHO most people tend to seriously over mix orchestras instead of letting them sound like an orchestra. That said, when needed I've had good results with a pair of Octava MK012 mics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted March 23, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 I've got very good sdc'c, it's just that when the horns get going they bury the strings (it's gotten better). But due to a very tight stage and seating in the risers, OH sdc's are tough to place. Having a player wear a theatre mic would place the capsule quite close to the instrument. Hoping it might improve things a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dennis a Posted March 23, 2014 Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 Lavliere mics attached to the instruments would probably work better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted March 23, 2014 Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 Think you might get a lot more mic movement noise too. I'm with a couple of mic placed near the leading edge of the orchestra being enough. Nobody attends this type of concert expecting to be blown away. (Most don't expect any amplification at all.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 23, 2014 Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 I think Tomm is trying to resolve a balance issue rather than a volume issue. Micing the entire orchestra will not help with this one bit. I would try placing an SDC near the first chair, picking up the better of the players and see if that gets you a little more section rather than a single instrument. A lav or headset will pick up an instrument only, and very directly at that. Not easy to mix back into an orchestra to sound like a section improvement IME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rob_H Posted March 23, 2014 Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 Have you thought about pick-ups? I do a little bit of this work a few times a year now and bought a few David Gage Realist pick-ups. They are pretty phenomenal and have not had any issues with musicians letting me do a temp install for the show; they are not cheap but I have not heard anything even close to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted March 23, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 I think Tomm is trying to resolve a balance issue rather than a volume issue. Micing the entire orchestra will not help with this one bit. I would try placing an SDC near the first chair, picking up the better of the players and see if that gets you a little more section rather than a single instrument. A lav or headset will pick up an instrument only, and very directly at that. Not easy to mix back into an orchestra to sound like a section improvement IME. Correct on the balance/volume issue. I'm also looking at figure 8's as an answer. Cannot provide PU's for the players (not on my dime) This issue gets better and better each year but it's not resolved to my satisfaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted March 23, 2014 Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 What would happen of you miked the string section with cardioids pointing so that the horns are behind them? It's not like you have monitors to worry about in this application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 23, 2014 Members Share Posted March 23, 2014 Individually micing (or pickups) on a section (strings include violin, viola, cello and bass) is a lot of work, expense and usually the benefit does not justify. I might consider a shotgun in the area covering the strings, this might be the least intrusive and most likely to be successful. I have a new AT 835b looking for a home, it's a line gradient mic that has a very tight pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted March 24, 2014 Members Share Posted March 24, 2014 Close micing strings makes them sound all together different. It's much like cymbals (it's very noticeable with cymbals) in that the different harmonics of the instrument must combine to get the proper sound. Some of the longer harmonics (often the fundamental) can be wavelengths of between one to twenty feet so for a true reproduction, ideally that would be the minimum distance. Obviously in SR "ideal" isn't always possible (the same reason - bleed - is why drum overheads aren't mic'd at a distance in a rock group) but IMO (as stated) the more distance (up to the lowest harmonic), the better. Looked at from another perspective, there IS a place for close mic'd strings but it's usually not in an orchestral setting. F.I. country fiddle & lots of pop music. just think of a violin up close (scratchy string noise) vs at a distance and the difference becomes obvious. Properly placed the figure 8 should do well (same idea as the shotgun aged proposed). Give it a try first. The 90 degree off axis provides an amazing amount of rejection (just be careful where the back side is pointed :-). Now if you really don't get along with the string players, a shotgun might just do the trick (politicaly incorrect joke :-). just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted March 26, 2014 Members Share Posted March 26, 2014 Interesting. What pattern does it have? Where on the stage would you possibly locate such a mic? (how much?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted March 26, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 26, 2014 Close micing strings makes them sound all together different. It's much like cymbals (it's very noticeable with cymbals) in that the different harmonics of the instrument must combine to get the proper sound. Some of the longer harmonics (often the fundamental) can be wavelengths of between one to twenty feet so for a true reproduction, ideally that would be the minimum distance. Obviously in SR "ideal" isn't always possible (the same reason - bleed - is why drum overheads aren't mic'd at a distance in a rock group) but IMO (as stated) the more distance (up to the lowest harmonic), the better. Looked at from another perspective, there IS a place for close mic'd strings but it's usually not in an orchestral setting. F.I. country fiddle & lots of pop music. just think of a violin up close (scratchy string noise) vs at a distance and the difference becomes obvious. Properly placed the figure 8 should do well (same idea as the shotgun aged proposed). Give it a try first. The 90 degree off axis provides an amazing amount of rejection (just be careful where the back side is pointed :-). Now if you really don't get along with the string players, a shotgun might just do the trick (politicaly incorrect joke :-). just my .02 Yeah I guess my shotgun would work better than their bows Yuck, Yuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 27, 2014 Members Share Posted March 27, 2014 KaBoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rob_H Posted March 29, 2014 Members Share Posted March 29, 2014 Individually micing (or pickups) on a section (strings include violin, viola, cello and bass) is a lot of work, expense and usually the benefit does not justify. I was surprised to read this comment Andy, I have found a huge (and positive) difference running the DGR pickups, in particular on cello . I run them all through tube voice channels and was amazed at what the results were as were members of the group when they heard the playback. Maybe you meant in certain venues there was limited benefit like a typical dance hall or something? All the work I have done with this is an a college amphitheater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 29, 2014 Members Share Posted March 29, 2014 In the context of an orchestra. 20 or 30 (or more) string mics is quite a cost (and management nightmare with often less than cooperative players) compared with the benefit. If you are working with other people's money, cost is not an issue of course, so any benefit is usually perceived as acceptable. Outdoors, the benefits are often greater too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rob_H Posted March 29, 2014 Members Share Posted March 29, 2014 Gotcha, thanks for clarifying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted April 7, 2014 Members Share Posted April 7, 2014 I guess replying to a post directly is not such a good idea as it likely gets overlooked. I have a new AT 835b looking for a home, it's a line gradient mic that has a very tight pattern. Interesting. What pattern does it have? Where on the stage would you possibly locate such a mic? (how much?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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