Members jbjr28 Posted December 10, 2016 Members Share Posted December 10, 2016 I've done a lot of digging, and I can't seem to find anyone else that's had this specific issue. I am a solo artist - keyboard player and vocalist. Up to this point, most of my playing/singing has been acoustic. But I recently invested in a Montage 8 keyboard, Sennheiser e935 mic, and a QSC K12 speaker. I'm using an Allen and Heath board to mix. Everything sounds great, but I'm having a problem: THIS NEW SET-UP IS KILLING MY EARS. I don't feel like I'm playing at a level that's too loud (I bought a decibel reader and I'm averaging about 88 decibels for the board, and my voice is in the upper 80s/low 90s). However, my issue is my vocal range is pretty wide, and so I think it's when I'm climbing up to hit high notes in my songs, my monitor is frying my ears. I'm peaking at like 102-105 dBas, even when I get the average stuff dialed in at around 85-90, AND I try my darndest to pull off the mic. I sing loud - I project; I'm trained classically. I can't seem to get any definitive answer on a compressor or a limiter, but I'm thinking it's gotta be these vocal peaks that are the culprit to my ears hurting (maybe an EQ issue too? But I've tried tweaking that to no avail). I've backed off playing until I can figure this out. Can anyone tell me what they think I can add to my chain to fix my ear issue? Simply turning down the volume isn't an answer either cause in order to bring those highs down, the bottom would disappear. I need to cap the peaks I think, but the info for this kind of problem is lacking. Suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted December 10, 2016 Moderators Share Posted December 10, 2016 hmmm... without hearing what you are hearing it is difficult to suggest a path of action.A limiter on your mic may be the answer... but your perception of loudness may not actually be coming from the speaker alone, but a combination of internal and external vocal perception.A compressor probably will not do what you want.Also, where the speaker is positioned might be part of the issue.You might try adding a powered near-field monitor to your rig, so that you are not getting blasted from the mains. [i did this for when I run my 2 600w Altos.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted December 10, 2016 Members Share Posted December 10, 2016 Etymotic Music Pro active ear plugs might be the answer. They compress the audio, especially the loud peaks. Personally, I wouldn't let anything over 85db "a" weighted/slow response enter my ears. http://www.etymotic.com/consumer/hearing-protection/mp915.html I use them on stage, and I monitor the volume. On-stage monitor volumes are not allowed over 95dba. If the meter reads higher, I turn the monitor down. Insights and incites by Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jbjr28 Posted December 10, 2016 Author Members Share Posted December 10, 2016 I did some research on audiologists in the area, and went in to see one that was a huge music head as well - came from a music family and had a background in music production/owned his own home studio. I made an appt to get a custom set of musicians plugs (deep molds past the second bend to eliminate occlusion), went in for the appt and he advised against them. Said plugs were a great thing to have in general, and recommended them as a listener/concert goer, but not for performance. He said I'd miss out on all the nuances in my sound - like the tail end of the reverb, for example. Little details that I think make all the difference between a good performance and a great one. He suggested getting some gear that reigns in the peaks. So, I'm leaning towards a limiter. Has anyone else used a limiter for this reason? Or is there something else I haven't thought of that I'm missing? I'm definitely gonna sing myself deaf by 50 if I don't do something...so I'm doing something about this. Singing without a mic is not an option either. It's that silky low-mid stuff that is my bread and butter, but I wanna be able to sing out the high stuff too without causing myself hearing loss. Probably should look into a near-field monitor, although I've got my QSC K12 as far away as my 15' cable will stretch from my console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jbjr28 Posted December 10, 2016 Author Members Share Posted December 10, 2016 After buying a decibel meter, I was surprised how common sounds of 85+ decibels are. I've been real careful with my ears my whole life, so I think them being a little sensitive is part of the issue. But 85 decibels out of a monitor is really not all that loud. Seems like the minimum for that fullness I need to feel supported vocally. Thanks for your input, Bob. I appreciate all I can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted December 11, 2016 Members Share Posted December 11, 2016 If your voice is killing your ears, what's it doing to the audience? I think that earplugs might work, but that doesn't help the folks in attendance. I think you might need to learn how to tame your voice. Barring that I have a few thoughts.... The QSC's are great speakers but they can get a little middy - or perhaps that's better said as they are flat, not midrange scooped. Try dialing a little mid out on your mixer, as long as your vocal tone doesn't suffer, that could help a bit. The e835's are perfectly good mics, I use one all the time, but they are a little strident. Some techs dislike them because of their slightly screechy highs. For example, I sometimes get ear fatigue using an e835 with Bose systems because of the highs. You could try a mellower mic like an SM58. I know of techs who would rather use an SM58 than a Beta58 because the Beta 58 (like the e835) seems to have certain highs that are hard to dial out (without losing everything). Speaking of mics you could try a mic with really good GBF (gain before feedback). These mics need you to be right on them, and if you back off a bit, the volume is reduced considerably. Many of the Audix products are known for this feature. Another suggestion is to buy a longer cable to get your speaker where you want it. If you spent all that money on a speaker, why not buy a cable that allows you to deploy it the way you want? A compressor/limiter could work, but it could also cause as many problems as it might solve - if you don't use it properly. Easiest solution might be to turn everything down, and learn how and when to either back off the mic, or back off internally. I have to sing completely differently when doing a solo as opposed to a band situation. Took me a while figure it out, but if I can do it, so can you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted December 11, 2016 Moderators Share Posted December 11, 2016 good point on the difference between singing in a band vs as a solo...something I also have had to learn to manage; but I am still thinking he is getting too much input from his mains, which is where the monitor comes in...he could use the mains strictly as FOH and be set up behind them. I'm also wondering if he is getting some vocal feedback through the mic which is propagating when he goes stentorian... Also, just to clarify, he is using a e935 which has better GBF than the e835 and has more midrange presence...so the mic itself is likely not the issue. I also agree that earplugs are a double edged sword, they protect your ears, but reduce the overall sound and tonal palette to the point where it just ain't right...and at the levels he is playing, his issue isn't overall volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jbjr28 Posted December 11, 2016 Author Members Share Posted December 11, 2016 Fortunately, I haven't aimed my QSC at an audience yet! Haha, not going to until I figure this out. I bought a dbx go rack (at the advice of my sweetwater sales engineer - it was $30, so it wasn't much of a risky financial investment). He seemed to think a 31 band eq might help me soften/scoop out some of the problem frequencies, without ruining my overall sound. Don't disagree at all that I'm gonna need to tweak how I use this set-up. Part of my problem is that I've been using a Clavinova CVP with a vocal limiter to practice for the last 4 months, and so there is definitely some unlearning to do in terms of how I'm singing into the mic. Just wondering if adding some sort of limiter to the mic input volume is the solution I need, or if it's something else entirely. Thanks for the suggestions, keep 'em coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted December 12, 2016 Moderators Share Posted December 12, 2016 just a thought...does the A&H have a headphone out? If so, try to replicate the 'overage' you are hearing in a closed environment, without the speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jbjr28 Posted December 13, 2016 Author Members Share Posted December 13, 2016 Ok, since I have more or less been working on/thinking about this non-stop for about 3 weeks, I finally think I've figured out the issue. And I would like to put down a few things that have worked in case someone else stumbles across this thread in the future with the same problem. I've definitely had to tweak my singing a bit, and that's obviously going to help to just sing a little less loud. However, there's no way to hit an A flat, A, or B flat (about the top of my actual singing voice/non-falsetto range) without singing with a lot of energy and volume (but don't push!). This was creating an issue as I was blasting my eardrums each time I climbed up there in practice. I got really lucky and someone gave me an old limiter they had - a dbx 286A, which is discontinued, but there are similar pieces of gear still on the market. This has made a HUGE difference. I used my decibel meter, and those notes which used to register about 107 dBa's are now at 94-96, and I could kick them down even further by just turning a knob. So many people I've talked to/read info from have been down on compressors/limiters, but they can definitely be useful. I also like how easy it is to sing the quieter stuff now because of the compressor (I also bought a $30 dbx go rack, which is surpringly hefty and well-built for 30 bucks, before I got the 286A). Setting all the gain between the gear is a bit of a balancing act, which is the only downside - took me a good bit of dialing to get rid of the feedback. ROOM ACOUSTICS REALLY MATTER. I took all my gear to the music store I work at over the weekend. Set it all up just like I do at home - same volume, same distance to the speaker. And I played for about the same amount of time. No real issues with my ears feeling sensitive after. I set up after work today at home and played, and I've had to quit a little earlier than I wanted because I don't want to spend another week trying to get the ringing to stop, and I can feel them warning me that that's coming if I continue. I had my dB meter out all evening - averaging maybe 82-83, and my ears are bothering me again. It's the damn, bare-bone dry walled walls and ceiling. I know it. They are essentially mid-hf amplifiers. Get some sound padding and make sure you're soaking up all the sound that's bouncing around. I'm going out tomorrow to get some stuff to set up. If you're having ear issues and you think your high/loud notes are part of the problem, I highly suggest looking at a limiter. They don't all cost $1,000 either. There are some Art Tube boxes that are under $75 that would definitely do the job. And if you don't feel like you're playing all that loud but your ears are ringing when things are quiet, the acoustics in your practice room need tweaking. Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted December 14, 2016 Moderators Share Posted December 14, 2016 ah, well there is another piece of the puzzle, but keep in mind that most venues like coffee houses and restaurants are not designed for performance volumes, and you will be facing similar issues in places that hire solos.The other issue of hitting notes at the top of your range...well, consider changing the key of the song so you don't need to use volume to get up there.But I am happy to hear that you have found a solution that works for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted December 14, 2016 Members Share Posted December 14, 2016 If your voice is killing your ears, what's it doing to the audience? I think that earplugs might work, but that doesn't help the folks in attendance<...snip...> When we do a sound check we use a sound level meter. We want it no louder than 85db at the first table. I think it is unethical to damage the ears of our audience. I usually tell the person in charge that we set the volume so that it doesn't damage ears, and let them know that if they want it turned either up or down, let me know. That way, if they want it cranked up, they are responsible, not me. I do care about my audience members, they are like an extended family to me. Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted December 17, 2016 Members Share Posted December 17, 2016 Just curious; where are you putting the limiter in the audio chain? In line with the mic, inserted on the mic channel or on the whole mix? Also, where is the DBX Go-Rack in this scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted December 19, 2016 Moderators Share Posted December 19, 2016 good questions. I was guessing the Go-rack is post-mixer/pre-powered speaker [typical use]; the limiter? maybe in the send/return? I don't know what A&H board he has... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted December 19, 2016 Members Share Posted December 19, 2016 Yeah, hopefully jbjr28 will chime in. My concern is that anything placed post mixer/pre active speaker(s) will affect everything in the mix and not just the vocal channel where the issue is present. So while that pre-programmed eq curve (ugh!) in the Go Rack might be beneficial to the vocal channel, it also might be detrimental to the keyboard channel and now you're fighting for accuracy/ clarity from your keyboards. Personally, I would start at the beginning of the problematic chain. Your voice and the mic. The Sennheiser e935 mic is a good mic, but perhaps it's not good for your voice. Try a few other mics that might have tamer upper mid. Start with the old reliable SM58 and see what you get. Try others. Maybe the 935 will work. Try setting that channel flat and then adjust it so that the upper registers sit well in the mix. Once that's dialed, add a little low end EQ to get the "silky low-mid" back into it and learn to work the mic and utilize the proximity effect that is present on most mics. That stuff is free (other than the mics) to try. Another thing to keep in mind is that three feet from your head and twenty feet into the audience will sound drastically different. If you need a personal monitor get one, but don't confuse what you're hearing from the speakers as what your audience maybe hearing. After you've been using them for a while in the same venues, you may be able to extrapolate what they're hearing with what your hearing, but that takes a lot of experience to get close and there are still a lot of variables that will change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STM86 Posted January 1, 2017 Members Share Posted January 1, 2017 I don't really need to hear the nuance of my own performance. The audience does. I'd rather hear the nuance in my kid's future performances, or basic things like the words that people are saying to me. Any audiologist who advised against heading protection should not be advising anyone. At the very least he should have suggested iem's instead. Just horrible advice all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STM86 Posted January 2, 2017 Members Share Posted January 2, 2017 I guess I'd rather hear what people are saying to me twenty years from now than the nuances of my own performance now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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