Yamaha LIED about the PLG150-AP

[The Pro]

If you've followed my thread on the Motifator.com "Plugboards" forum (see "PLG150-AP - hands on review") then you've already seen this.

 

First, I was one of the first to get a PLG150-AP piano expansion borad from Keyfax last week and immediately installed it into my stage keyboard, a Yamaha 9000 Pro. Yamaha. in it's official press release for the PLG150-AP specifically says that the AP board is compatible with the 9000 Pro. Not so - it's only partially compatible. It turns out that Yamaha did not include any voice data for the 9000 Pro with the PLG150-AP. There is voice data on an included CD for the CS6X, CS6R, S30, S80, S90, Motif, Motif Rack and Motif ES. Without the voice data the AP board will only play the AP's raw sample data, which sounds dull and has obvious sample transitions.

 

I was obviously disappointed with the sound of the PLG150-AP in my 9000 Pro, so I posted my a review of the AP with the 9000 Pro as a host and got an immediate response from one of the Yamaha reps telling me the 9000 Pro would only play the raw sample data and wouldn't sound the same as when the board is used in a Motif ES. In other words, he knew that the AP/9000 Pro combo wouldn't sound right before the AP board ever hit the street! So I removed the AP from my 9000 Pro and put it into my Motif ES 8 and installed the voice data - sure enough, it sounds great and totally different from the way it sounded in my 9000 Pro.

 

Yamaha has gone out of it's way in the past to not support the 9000 Pro, an expensive and powerful keyboard which has been referred to as a "failed experiment" in private by Yamaha's reps. Even so, for them to market new products like the PLG150-AP as being compatible with the 9000 Pro knowing they haven't provided the necessary voice data for the AP to sound as it should is outright false advertising.

 

Fortunately the PLG150-AP has a home now in my Motif ES 8 and I think it's a better piano sound than the Mo's own triple-strike piano or the older piano expansion card the PLG150-PF. But for them to screw 9000 Pro owners by selling us the PLG150-AP is criminal.

 

Go ahead Mike Martin or any other Yamaha rep - make my day: explain this one...

[Pilot]

That wasn't the only thing they lied about. If you remember, they promised that the PSR2000 would have a replaceable ROM for the OS. Never happened.

 

Bryan

[The Pro]

I just recieved a private email from one of Yamaha's reps. The consider "compliant" to be sufficient... the PLG150-AP will "function" in a 9000 Pro but Yamaha will take no responsibility for the actual sound quality. And no, they don't feel obligated to produce voice data to optimize the AP with the 9000 Pro. If their newest expansion product sounds bad in your $3000 synth even though they market it to use it that way, too bad. The rep I spoke to didn't even believe me at first when I told him the the 9000 Pro was mentioned in the press release for the PLG150-AP, but when he read the press release link I provided he then said that since the press release only said the PLG150-AP was "compatible" with the 9000 Pro that it was a true statement. Obviously the quality of the product when used as recommended isn't a concern.

 

Another thing: there are parameters within the PLG150-AP which have no definitions in the AP owner's manual. Nothing will be done about that either.

 

Sooo... the bottom line: the PLG150-AP is for Motif, S-series and C-series owners... Yamaha wants to sell you the AP to use with other Yamaha products but if it sounds like crap then you're on your own. Time will only tell if they bother to explain what some of those undefined parameters are no matter what host keyboard you own.

 

My friends, that sucks!!!

[analogaddict]

It seems a lot of companies do this; Roland claimed their Fantom could read AKAI samples, and it does - but it doesn

[mucsusn]

To be specific, Rolands claim about reading Akai samples revolves around yet to be released conversion software for the Fantom X series. They advertised it as a done deal when the units were released, but it is as yet unreleased. They are still promising, though. Natively, they were only advertised to read .wav and .aiff files.

[nih]

Originally posted by The Pro And no, they don't feel obligated to produce voice data to optimize the AP with the 9000 Pro. My friends, that sucks!!!

 

Pro - Sorry you are having difficulty with the AP/9000 integration.

 

I have read some of the responses to your posts and I'm trying to understand what is missing when the techs indicate that additional 9000-specific voicing would be required to get this right. What does this mean?

 

Doesn't the 9000 Pro and PLG150AP allow granular tweaking/optimization of all voices via low level XG-like commands such sysex/control changes and parameter edits that can be applied to the voice processing /playback engines which convert coded waveform samples in ROM, to the desired quality of sound?

 

Does this tweaking need to be done on the AP card as well?

 

Is there any reason to believe that if Yamaha shares the AP Data List (I assume you have the Data List for the 9000 Pro) that you couldn't tweak the voicing yourself (if you were motivated to do so)?

 

Or - Is this voicing data optimization process something that is only known to Yamaha and needs to be done by them?

 

-neil

[MuzikB]

Originally posted by Jazz+ That's Yamaha.

 

Aint that the truth.

 

BURN THEM!!!

 

 

 

[scubyfan]

Where's Kiru? There! No. There! Nooo...there!

 

Dammit Kiru, where are you? This thread is lacking the pro-Yamaha side!

[The Pro]

 

Originally posted by nih Pro - Sorry you are having difficulty with the AP/9000 integration. I have read some of the responses to your posts and I'm trying to understand what is missing when the techs indicate that additional 9000-specific voicing would be required to get this right. What does this mean? Doesn't the 9000 Pro and PLG150AP allow granular tweaking/optimization of all voices via low level XG-like commands such sysex/control changes and parameter edits that can be applied to the voice processing /playback engines which convert coded waveform samples in ROM, to the desired quality of sound? Does this tweaking need to be done on the AP card as well? Is there any reason to believe that if Yamaha shares the AP Data List (I assume you have the Data List for the 9000 Pro) that you couldn't tweak the voicing yourself (if you were motivated to do so)? Or - Is this voicing data optimization process something that is only known to Yamaha and needs to be done by them? -neil

 

 

To be honest, I don't exactly know what all goes into the voice data. I understand that it involves the integration of the expansion board with the architecture of the host synth, and that varies from synth to synth (so in theory, the PLG150-AP will sound different in every host synth, which could present some issues by itself). Also, to make matters worse, the parameters that can be tweaked changes from synth to synth also - when the AP was in the 9000 Pro I found several tweaking parameters with no reference in the AP's manual, and those parameters were quite different when the AP was moved to my Motif ES... hence my complaint that there should be a seperate application guide (online if nowhere else) for each host synth pertaining to the PLG150-AP.

 

I can handle some EQ'ing, which I know is part of the answer, but frankly I have no idea how to address the problem of smoothing out the sample transitions, which were very obvious when the AP card was in the 9000 Pro but nearly unnoticeable when I put the AP card in my Motif ES 8.

 

None the less, I maintain that if Yamaha intends to sell the PLG150-AP for use with the 9000 Pro then they are going to wind up with mad 9000 Pro owners when the card doesn't contain the documentation or the data to make it sound as good as their marketing claims it should. And I get the further impression that noone at Yamaha really cares enough to fix this situation.

 

After all the crowing they did about this board before it's release, this really reflects very badly on them.

[Jeez]

Drongos.

 

Forever,

 

 

 

 

Kim.

[Kirumamoru]

Hi. I'm not sure what to say. Mostly, I agree with ThePro that this sucks, and was a poor decision on Yamaha's part. If they were going to market it as "compliant", they should make it very clear what they mean by that. On the other hand, I do feel compelled to point out that the 9000Pro is an older, discontinued instrument. Nobody gets pissed that you can't put an SRX card into an XP-30. On the other hand, Roland doesn't advertise that you can, either.

 

The thing about the PLG card system is that it IS more sophisticated than Roland's or Korg's plugin system. It's not just a matter of sticking in a card with some samples in ROM and some programs that work with what is essentially a universal sound engine. Each PLG card is a separate instrument in and of itself, and the way that they're incorporated into their host instrument is of necessity more complex than what you encounter with other manufacturers' instruments.

 

All that being said, while I can understand Yamaha's decision not to make the card compatable with the 9000Pro, I cannot condone their misleading advertising; they shouldn't use marketing language to convince you to buy something that isn't going to work properly with your equipment.

 

Kiru

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by Kirumamoru Nobody gets pissed that you can't put an SRX card into an XP-30. On the other hand, Roland doesn't advertise that you can, either.

 

Yep it alse sure sucks to not be able to play XBOX games on my Atari VCS2600... damn Atari... couldn't they just be a little more forward thinking back in 1978?

[lakelanddude]

In fact, this may be the drawback of modular expansion system used by Yamaha. Modular expansion system is praised for adding polyphony.. on the other hand, it seem to be hardware dependent too. So much for the selling point. For now, I gonna stick with Rom expansion system only. One note, modular expansion system adds polyphony to its own voices only. It doesn't add polyphony to the system as a whole. Duh...

[GigMan]

The Pro -

Sounds like you got the shaft, brother.

 

What did you shell out for that PLG150-AP board?

 

BTW -

I just defended you in the alt.music.makers.soloact thread -

 

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=KnRjd.10855%248G4.9777%40tornado.tampabay.rr.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26group%3Dalt.music.makers.soloact

 

...where you posted 'bout how that newsgroup should be made into a forum, like this KSS forum here. Your buddy "The Beemer" had called your screen name and mine "presumptuous handles" - to which you conceded. I don't (concede, that is) - they're not presumptuous, just accurate...

 

 

[chick korea]

sooooo roland arent the only ones???

 

i feel a little better .....

[The Pro]

 

Originally posted by lakelanddude In fact, this may be the drawback of modular expansion system used by Yamaha. Modular expansion system is praised for adding polyphony.. on the other hand, it seem to be hardware dependent too. So much for the selling point. For now, I gonna stick with Rom expansion system only. One note, modular expansion system adds polyphony to its own voices only. It doesn't add polyphony to the system as a whole. Duh...

 

 

Of course the PLG boards are dependent on the host keyboard for DAC's and the necessary hardware for them to become part of the keyboard's synth engine. They also interact with the host keyboard's EQ but they have their own effects section.

 

Yes, they have their own polyphony and don't actually contribute polyphony to the host instrument, but in effect they free up the host keyboard's polyphony for other things. For example, the PLG150-AP has 64 notes of polyphony so if you play that live then you would have more voices/polyphony free on the actual keyboard for SMF playback and such.

 

I have grievances over the new PLG150-AP as it worked in my 9000 Pro but not as it works in my Motif ES 8. Overall I still think the Yamaha PLG board concept is a good one, and personally I make use of the additional polyphony they provide. Korg and Roland expansion boards don't change the available polyphony for the host instrument.

[The Pro]

Originally posted by GigMan The Pro - Sounds like you got the shaft, brother. What did you shell out for that PLG150-AP board? BTW - I just defended you in the alt.music.makers.soloact thread - http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=KnRjd.10855%248G4.9777%40tornado.tampabay.rr.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26group%3Dalt.music.makers.soloact ...where you posted 'bout how that newsgroup should be made into a forum, like this KSS forum here. Your buddy "The Beemer" had called your screen name and mine "presumptuous handles" - to which you conceded. I don't (concede, that is) - they're not presumptuous, just accurate...

 

Thanks for watching my back, but Beemer and I are old buddies and I'm planning a trip down to Orlando to visit him in the Spring - he's harmless.

 

I paid $249 for the PLG150-AP, and again I must point out that this card works perfectly and is well supported in my Motif ES 8 so I don't feel shafted at all. Even knowing what I do now I would buy it again for my Motif, but not for my 9000 Pro.

 

I now know a little more about what happened: the PLG150-AP card was made and supported by the Synth Division of Yamaha. You may have read that Yamaha recently divided it's keyboard divisions and the Motif, C-series and S-series synths are part of the Synth Division... PSR-series and Tyros and the discontinued 9000 Pro are under the PKB Division (portable keyboard, ie: home division). These are completly seperate departments now. So the PLG150-AP came with voice data for the instruments of the Synth Division that created it, namely Motif, S-Series and C-series instruments. Why they didn't get their freinds in the PKB division to contribute voice data for their PLG-compatible keyboards (meaning the 9000 Pro) is the big question... maybe the departments are seperated by distance as well as by title.

 

This hard division of the pro and home keyboards in Yamaha seems to indicate that we won't see crossover keyboards like the 9000 Pro again, so people who've been hoping for a "Tyros Pro" may be out of luck. And as usual, Yamaha has treated the 9000 Pro as an unwanted stepchild yet again - I no of no other instrument in it's price range that has been so blatantly ignored by it's parent company. It's 9000 Pro owners that are truly shafted over & over...

[davinwv]

Pro:

 

My computer is nowhere near my S-90. Can I just copy the relevant voice data MIDI file to a SM card and play the file in my S-90 from the SM card, thus eliminating the need for a computer to be involved?

 

Thanks,

Davin

[The Pro]

 

Originally posted by davinwv Pro: My computer is nowhere near my S-90. Can I just copy the relevant voice data MIDI file to a SM card and play the file in my S-90 from the SM card, thus eliminating the need for a computer to be involved? Thanks, Davin

 

 

It sounds logical, but I just don't know.

[eric]

 

Originally posted by davinwv Pro: My computer is nowhere near my S-90. Can I just copy the relevant voice data MIDI file to a SM card and play the file in my S-90 from the SM card, thus eliminating the need for a computer to be involved? Thanks, Davin

 

 

This is how I manage voice loading on my S90 and I've never had my S90 within 100 feet of my computer! I use a little SM card reader hooked to the PC via USB. I load sounds to the card, take the card to the S90 and then upload them from the card to the S90. I constantly make backups of my Gig settings, for fear that I might accidentally upload a new bank over top of my latest tweaks that I make just about every time I play.

 

I've been meaning to buy a backup SM card to carry with me, just in case something were to happen. This would also be handy if I was using someone else's S90 by chance.

 

Regards,

Eric

[davinwv]

 

Originally posted by eric This is how I manage voice loading on my S90 and I've never had my S90 within 100 feet of my computer! I use a little SM card reader hooked to the PC via USB. I load sounds to the card, take the card to the S90 and then upload them from the card to the S90. I constantly make backups of my Gig settings, for fear that I might accidentally upload a new bank over top of my latest tweaks that I make just about every time I play. I've been meaning to buy a backup SM card to carry with me, just in case something were to happen. This would also be handy if I was using someone else's S90 by chance. Regards, Eric

 

 

Eric:

 

Have you used this method to load voice data for a PLG card? There are some folks on the forums at SNinety.com who think that the S90 may not support a "bulk dump" from a MIDI file from an SM card.

 

Also, if you have sucessfully loaded the PLG150-AP voices from the MIDI file, do the patches have effects? Again, one of the users on the SNinety.com site thinks he has loaded these voices, but cannot hear any effects on them.

 

Please advise,

Davin

[Birdienumnum]

Harmony Central has just posted the announcement for the PLG150-AP: "Compatible with Yamaha's Motif ES, Motif Rack, Motif, S Series, CS Series and PSR9000 Pro product lines".

 

Right here at this site.