Live performance - Ableton Live or hardware groovebox?

[ChristianRock]

Before I go on vacation on Friday, here's something that I'll be thinking about while I'm gone...

I want to change my musical direction a little bit and do a one (or preferably two) man live project based on electronic/pop/rock music (synths and guitars!).

Since most people are using a computer with Ableton Live to do this kind of stuff, that is what I've been looking into - with the APC40 I guess. I've also been giving the Arturia Spark a though, and once they have VST integration and control external synths from its sequencer, it will be a VERY powerful solution. But it's just not close to being there yet.

Live on the other hand is a pretty mature product.

But I've also been looking at the possibility of skipping the computer altogether and have either an MC909 or an EMU Command Station loaded with parameters supply the drum sounds and control hardware synths. It would allow me to get some mileage out of my Fusion, N1R and EX-8000 while saving some money that could go towards some outboard equipment and maybe even an analog monosynth.

The MC909 in particular seems appealing (with SRX05) because all the basic drum sounds are available in spades in that SRX card and I could load other sounds if I wanted to get away from the basic 808/909/etc stuff. The sensitive pads, step programming and pattern chaining with mute remain would seem to do all that I would need. I would also be able to do drones, bass sounds and pads on it which I could tweak to oblivion with that awesome interface.

The Command Station would also supply the step programming, patterns, , I think, with the added benefit of 2 MIDI outs for 32 MIDI channels. I'd lose the more complete interface of the MC909.

But I keep having this feeling that people have been moving to Live for a reason, so my question is, what would I miss if I skipped on Live/APC40 and decided to go for a 100% hardware solution instead? What kind of stuff is available in Live, that is not available in the two grooveboxes I mentioned?

I've been getting some great insight on Live from Metrosonus, and I'd also love to see what other Live users would add to this conversation.

[Re-Member]

Ableton Live is in many ways like a software version of the Roland Grooveboxes, so it's hard to recommend one over the other unless you want to stick to hardware only for live performances. Ableton is way more flexible in how it operates, plus you can use VST instruments and samples. The sound creation possibilities are endless, plus it's a great sequencer for external gear as well.

The MC-909 has an insanely deep synth engine, plus sampling. You could actually import samples to use on custom drum kits or set them up as oscillator waveforms for patches, so the expansion cards are basically pointless unless you're wanting more preset sounds. Long story short, it's basically like a workstation with a really great interface, minus a full set of real keys.

The downside to both is that the MC-909 is too big and heavy for what it does compared to a laptop, then if you want Ableton to be as flexible as the MC-909 in a live situation, you'll need an additional control surface for it.

Can't say much about the Command Station since I never played with one.

My verdict would be that if you don't care to be another "dude with laptop" on stage, go for Ableton. If not, any of the Roland grooveboxes are great for improv type performances.

[DJ RAZZ]

What little I know of both pieces, I would think that an Ableton Live/Akai APC-40 combo would give more control and better quality of sound once everything was setup. Computers can be more risky though. With that being said from DJ standpoint, I could not do my job/show without a computer. Check out the Novation Launchpad as well. I have heard they are good for live performance in particular.

Who knows what NAMM or Musikmesse will bring......

For the record the Roland SP-404SX in on my short list.

[liliththekitten]

I currently use Live for almost everything. Live plus an APC or a Launchpad plus SL (my preference) is a great and powerful tool, basically a mega groovebox. I love Live, I love VST's and I chose Live for convenience and expandability but I also miss having hardware grooveboxes.

I haven't used the Roland Grooveboxes though - only Yamaha Rm1x/RS7000 and the little Electribes. (I want a MC-909.) Live sounds better but the Yamaha sequencer beats Live hands down. Live in Session mode is a bit too "loop-y" and I always edit everything heavily in the Arranger to where I might as have been using Cubase or any other DAW.

For step sequencing in Live - I really like AudioDamage Tattoo. That and Kontakt or Drum Racks/Impulse triggered by Akai pads are my source of beats.

Live also really comes alive with a controller. APC40 has two footswitch inputs which might be handy.

There's also Maschine of course.

[girevik]

When I was playing with my friend's band, we tried using my Emu Command Station. The problem we encountered was that her songs, while harmonically simple, had a lot of sudden changes - one passage would be 100 bpm faster than the one before it, or a new section would be in a different time signature. Complicating matters further, she liked to vary the number of bars she would play a chorus or verse. For example, if the mood struck her, she would play an extra 4 bars of the chorus so that she could insert new lyrics or jam out with her voice.

Ableton Live is largely about being able to play one's music in a non-linear way if one desired, which is why it is so popular with remixers. So you could go from verse A to verse B, skipping the chorus, then play through the chorus as many times as you want, then go to verse C, then decide at last minute whether to go back to verse A or verse B.

However, if you are used to tightly arranging all your music, the hardware groovebox solution should be fine. We have a local shoegaze duo - a guitarist/vocalist and a guitarist/keyboardist, who play live with 2 Electribes and a Roland SP sampler - I think a 404. They sequence drum parts, bass lines, and the occasional synth line on these hardware boxes, and the rest of the sound is filled out by heavily processed guitars. Their songs are tightly arranged, except for some noise freakouts at the end of some songs - the sequencers are off of course when that happens.

[liliththekitten]

The Yamahas are good for playing tunes in a non-linear way. Imagine the Rolands are too. idk about tempo changes I'm mainly electronic dance/ambient so I rarely do them. In Live I've just done them by changing the master tempo curve in Arranger so not really live.

[girevik]

Originally Posted by liliththekitten

The Yamahas are good for playing tunes in a non-linear way.

So you're saying on a Yamaha workstation I could set up a "song" made up of Patterns A, B, C, and D, yet be able to play back the patterns in any order I want during the song (BCDA ABDC ADBC etc), and also individual sequencer tracks?

The Emu Command Station has Songs made of Patterns but you have to stop the Song to reorder the Patterns unless my memory totally fails. The way around that is to use the programmable arpeggiators, of which you can have up to 64 at once (each arpeggiator programmable to a ridiculous number of steps).

[liliththekitten]

Yes if you play the RM1x or RS7000 in pattern mode you can switch between different parts of a song on the fly and do it out of sequence so you can go ABCD, BADC etc. You can switch between sections by using the keys or the menu screen. Hit a button and these same keys can mute/unmute individual tracks. I seem to remember the RM1x being a bit easier for stuff like this though the internal sound engine is pretty crappy compared to the RS and ultimately I preferred the way the RS worked. The QY-70 had a similar sequencer but with only 8 tracks instead of 16 I liked that one.

I only used the RM1x and RS7000 in pattern mode. Besides Song mode the Yamahas also had Pattern Chain mode which might be something powerful and useful as well but I never used it.

[Meatball Fulton]

Originally Posted by liliththekitten

Besides Song mode the Yamahas also had Pattern Chain mode which might be something powerful and useful as well but I never used it.

Yamaha pattern chaining is a way to construct songs out of patterns in real time. It's the equivalent of "song" mode in most drum machines and grooveboxes.

To record a new chain you just jam in pattern mode: selecting patterns, muting and unmuting tracks, etc. and all your button presses get recorded into the chain. The chain can be saved for playback or converted into a new song. You can also edit the chain after recording in case your timing was sloppy

Back to Live: no one has discussed the ability to record new clips and tracks (audio or MIDI) while performing, something very few grooveboxes allow.

[Meatball Fulton]

Back to grooveboxes: Roland MCs, eMu Command Stations and Yamaha RM1x or RS7000 are still easy enough to locate used, but all of them are discontinued and use older media (floppies, Smart Media, SCSI, etc.) plus have seen years of use (and/or abuse). Read up on the quirks of the various models esp. with regards to switches and displays wearing out.

[donaldcrunk]

i use to do this by muting and unmuting stacks in Numerology, or muting and unmuting tracks in digital performer. Ableton would be far more flexible i'm sure.

i've seen a couple people rock the RS7000 pretty heartily, it seems to be a good groovebox. you have to decide how much flexibility you want with the patterns - you mentioned switching between already made patterns, but are you going to want to edit the content of the pattern on the fly for some improv, or just tweak the engine that the groovebox is sequencing?

interested to see how your project pans out. with ye olde bande scenic square, we have 2 guitarists, myself and the lead dude playing rhodes/singing. 90 percent of the time things were run from the laptop, but if i had to do things again in 2011 it would be much different. lead dude is off to yale at the moment so we won't be jamming again anytime soon, however if i had to set up a live system for the same instrumentation i'd probably go with Elektron products. that's more of a sonic and workflow preference, and i just don't like the connotations attached to Ableton Live (and the fact that it sucks to actually _mix_ a record with).

and if i had to use the laptop? numerology + launchpad midi controlling the modular, no question. but i suppose that's not a very applicable option to everyone.

[mister natural]

Originally Posted by liliththekitten

I currently use Live for almost everything. Live plus(edit)Launchpad (my preference) is a great and powerful tool, basically a mega groovebox. I love Live, I love VST's and I chose Live for convenience and expandability . . .
I haven't used the Roland Grooveboxes though. Live in Session mode(edit:CAN BE) a bit too "loop-y" and I always edit everything heavily in the Arranger to where I might as have been using Cubase or any other DAW.

Live also really comes alive with a controller

Amazing that I work almost the same way, Lilith . . . with a few exceptions. That's one of the hidden beauties of LIVE; you develop your own workflow with the software. With pratice, practice, practice

There are some great drumbox VSTi applications out there, above are a few to which I'd also recco uTonic or Giest with it's enormous & massively deep programming ability

[mister natural]

Originally Posted by Meatball Fulton

It's the equivalent of "song" mode in most drum machines and grooveboxes

following-up : Geist also has a powerful "song mode"

if your compositions hava lot of time changes - LIVE is kinda klutzy at handling signature changes . . . for straight ahead swinging beats, it can't (be beat)

happy holidays people !

[ChristianRock]

You guys rock! Lots of good advice here.

Regarding grooveboxes: I thought mostly all grooveboxes allow you to create your sequence of patterns as you play (basically by selecting the pattern that will play next after the current one ends). Including the Command Station, RS7000 and of course the Roland MCs. Not to mention the Electribes, I'm sure they do that too. The reason I'm not considering them is mostly down to the fact that they don't support velocity to their drum sounds... from reading up the manual, they won't even record velocity if they're played by an external MIDI device!
Anyway, the RS7000 seems to be the only one that will allow you to edit your patterns while another pattern is playing. In that way I guess it's similar to Ableton Live, except more stable and won't crash on you.
The reason I wasn't considering the RS7000 is because I thought their drum sounds aren't that great. If I'm paying 500-600 bucks for something, I think it should at least have some decent drum sounds. MC909 + SRX05 have that, at least to my taste (someone mentioned me not needing drum sounds since these are samplers, but I don't know if I can get a wav or soundfont of drum sounds that are as good as what Eric Persing put into the SRX-05).
The MC909 has the mute remain feature, that I can also see helping a lot when playing live.

Now on to the computer stuff. People say Live is quite buggy regarding automation mapping, but I don't know if I'm going to be using a whole lot of that.

Suggestions at GS regarding using Maschine within Live, plus Launchpad to trigger clips. We'll see if I can afford all that, since I still don't even have a computer that I can use! I guess Live + Spark + Launchpad could work too. I'll have to look at the ups and downs of these two solutions.

[girevik]

Originally Posted by Meatball Fulton

Yamaha pattern chaining is a way to construct songs out of patterns in real time. It's the equivalent of "song" mode in most drum machines and grooveboxes.

To record a new chain you just jam in pattern mode: selecting patterns, muting and unmuting tracks, etc. and all your button presses get recorded into the chain. The chain can be saved for playback or converted into a new song. You can also edit the chain after recording in case your timing was sloppy

Oh cool. I must confess I have not used my Emu Command Station in Song mode, only in Pattern mode. It has an XMix feature which sounds similar to what you and Lilith described - this feature lets you replace tracks in the currently playing Pattern with tracks from another Pattern.

Originally Posted by Meatball Fulton

Back to Live: no one has discussed the ability to record new clips and tracks (audio or MIDI) while performing, something very few grooveboxes allow.

I was conflicted between waiting for Elektron to add the Looper machine and MIDI foot controller support to the Octatrack and getting Ableton Live - as a solution for integrating sequencing and audio looping. The free Max For Live promotion last April combined with Elektron's Octatrack decisions (more MIDI features added, but still no Looper machine as of today) pushed me to Live. I plan to get a SoftStep to serve as the foot controller for looping and triggering clips.

I just have to resist the temptation to waste too much time trying these extra sequencers you can get for Live in plugin form or as a Max For Live device (tried a couple already) before I have enough understanding of Live's basic sequencing functionality to make music with it.

[girevik]

 

Originally Posted by mister natural

if your compositions hava lot of time changes - LIVE is kinda klutzy at handling signature changes . . . for straight ahead swinging beats, it can't (be beat)

 

What issues have you encountered with time signature changes in Ableton Live?

[Re-Member]

 

Originally Posted by liliththekitten

I haven't used the Roland Grooveboxes though - only Yamaha Rm1x/RS7000 and the little Electribes. (I want a MC-909.) Live sounds better but the Yamaha sequencer beats Live hands down. Live in Session mode is a bit too "loop-y" and I always edit everything heavily in the Arranger to where I might as have been using Cubase or any other DAW.

 

One trick to remember is that while in Session View, you can program songs to operate in a linear fashion using the scene clip buttons on the right. What I typically do is have the first scene and all its clips act as an 4/4 intro, then the next set of clips below would act as the next chunk of 4/4 and so on. This makes it easier to focus on specific looped measures of a song and just cut and copy clips around as you work your way down the scenes, rather than have to activate clips manually. Eventually, I end up with a large chunk of scenes which if triggered one after the other, play the song in its entirety.

[DJ RAZZ]

Originally Posted by Re-Member

One trick to remember is that while in Session View, you can program songs to operate in a linear fashion using the scene clip buttons on the right. What I typically do is have the first scene and all its clips act as an 4/4 intro, then the next set of clips below would act as the next chunk of 4/4 and so on. This makes it easier to focus on specific looped measures of a song and just cut and copy clips around as you work your way down the scenes, rather than have to activate clips manually. Eventually, I end up with a large chunk of scenes which if triggered one after the other, play the song in its entirety.

OK do you then take it to the Live sequencer afterward or arrangement view if you want to add vocal, outboard or just to finish the song? How do transfer the clips as is, or as a 2 track, or something else. What does it look like, does it make the project look huge?

Thanks just curious,

[Re-Member]

Originally Posted by DJ RAZZ

OK do you then take it to the Live sequencer afterward or arrangement view if you want to add vocal, outboard or just to finish the song? How do transfer the clips as is, or as a 2 track, or something else. What does it look like, does it make the project look huge?

Thanks just curious,

If you're familiar with Roland Grooveboxes, Session View is essentially what I like to consider "Groovebox Mode" where you have your track instruments assigned left to right which you can mute on and off, then the Scene buttons act as a method of switching between Patterns. This is essentially the Live Sequencer, as you've put it.

Bouncing it into Arrangement View is a matter of hitting record on the top and just recording yourself triggering clips or scenes in Session View. Arrangement View is just a traditional looking DAW, so depending on how many track instruments you've set up, that is how many tracks that will get carried over. The clips that are triggered get turned into either solid MIDI or audio streams, so it only becomes as huge as the session you've recorded. The problem with Arrangement View is that anything you add here doesn't carry over into Session View unless you copy and paste it onto new clips, so it's best to do as much of the song writing process as possible on Session View first using scenes. Even vocals can be recorded in Session View, it's just a matter of placing them in the right scene to be triggered. It's basically like triggering a sample.

This probably all sounds confusing if you haven't used Live, but again, it's very much like operating a Roland Groovebox.

[DJ RAZZ]

Originally Posted by Re-Member

If you're familiar with Roland Grooveboxes, Session View is essentially what I like to consider "Groovebox Mode" where you have your track instruments assigned left to right which you can mute on and off, then the Scene buttons act as a method of switching between Patterns. This is essentially the Live Sequencer, as you've put it.

Bouncing it into Arrangement View is a matter of hitting record on the top and just recording yourself triggering clips or scenes in Session View. Arrangement View is just a traditional looking DAW, so depending on how many track instruments you've set up, that is how many tracks that will get carried over. The clips that are triggered get turned into either solid MIDI or audio streams, so it only becomes as huge as the session you've recorded. The problem with Arrangement View is that anything you add here doesn't carry over into Session View unless you copy and paste it onto new clips, so it's best to do as much of the song writing process as possible on Session View first using scenes. Even vocals can be recorded in Session View, it's just a matter of placing them in the right scene to be triggered. It's basically like triggering a sample.

This probably all sounds confusing if you haven't used Live, but again, it's very much like operating a Roland Groovebox.

It does sound confusing and I appreciate the fact that you know this about a new user. But I do want to learn and everything is confusing when it is new and unfamiliar. We keyboard/synth players have always had to embrace this dilemma.

[The Pro]

This is a reply to CR's original post.

I've got a similar goal as you and have been looking at Ableton Live and some interesting keyboard interfaces by Music Computing as a direction.

But just over the past 48 hours an interesting situation came up. My church decided to combine worship teams with another church and put on a Christmas Eve concert. The music was set well in advance and we all had recordings/lead sheets etc of seven songs (mostly Chris Tomlin versions of Christmas songs). On Thursday night we got together for rehearsal - it was a disaster. The drummer and bass player from the other church hadn't practiced the songs at all. The show was heading for a cancellation.

Yesterday I decided to try to recreate the songs/show on a Yamaha Tyros III. It took me about three hours to set it all up and it sounds great. I mostly used preset patterns with some shuffling of tracks between patterns. Those "songs" are now set as individual registrations, each of which brings up the patterns, tempos, keyboard combinations and even short sequenced phrases (arpeggios and stabs) I need to perform each song live. I've been using the Tyros for two years and I am still amazed by how easy, versatile, and fun it is to use, especially for songwriting.

This is not to say that an arranger is your answer but we often take them for granted. My goal is to advance towards a keyboard device that is as easy to use as an arranger but with more sophistication and freedom. Just thought I'd share.

[liliththekitten]

Originally Posted by mister natural

Amazing that I work almost the same way, Lilith . . . with a few exceptions. That's one of the hidden beauties of LIVE; you develop your own workflow with the software. With pratice, practice, practice

There are some great drumbox VSTi applications out there, above are a few to which I'd also recco uTonic or Giest with it's enormous & massively deep programming ability

So true.

uTonic and Geist are on my list, esp uTonic.

[liliththekitten]

 

Originally Posted by Re-Member

One trick to remember is that while in Session View, you can program songs to operate in a linear fashion using the scene clip buttons on the right. What I typically do is have the first scene and all its clips act as an 4/4 intro, then the next set of clips below would act as the next chunk of 4/4 and so on. This makes it easier to focus on specific looped measures of a song and just cut and copy clips around as you work your way down the scenes, rather than have to activate clips manually. Eventually, I end up with a large chunk of scenes which if triggered one after the other, play the song in its entirety.

 

I've started doing this, it makes it really easy and Launchpad has dedicated scene launch buttons that make it really handy. I still edit a lot when i'm recording original tunes my drum parts are usually heavily edited - a bit less so since doing acid house and dubstep. Live DJ stuff (mixing/chopping up/reordering songs0 I don't bother, its more spontaneous.

[Anderton]

The last time I used grooveboxes live was a pair of Ensoniq ASR-Xs, and then I switched to Live. I know grooveboxes have changed since then, but Live rocks.

I "DJ" on Live in real time, and overdub guitar and vocals. Live of course has great processors for guitar and voice so that's a big plus. I put "DJ" in quotes because I'm not using full tracks, but loops that get arranged/mutated in real time.

One thing for sure - you definitely need a hardware controller if you want to get Live to anywhere near its potential. I used to use a Peavey PC-1600 because I gotta gotta gotta have control for 16 channels simultaneously. Got the APC-40 and love it, also have an APC-20 but my favorite combination currently is an APC-40 + Launchpad. Each does different things, I use the APC-40 for the material where I really have to mix, and the Launchpad for more set-and-forget parts, like punching one of the Launchpad buttons and bringing in percussion background parts at a preset level.

Live is a brilliant program, and you can use it lots of different ways. In fact I've never seen two Live veterans use it in exactly the same way.

[girevik]

Lemur (either the original hardware Lemur or the iPad app) looks interesting as a controller for Live. It can also be used as a sequencer:

Hardware Lemur sequencing a modular - the Lemur is running a Lemur "interface" called Sequencomat (its developer is apparently working on a port to the iPad version of Lemur). Demo is by a guy who works for Elektron (yes, the guys who make Monomachine, Octatrack, etc.):