Studying classical piano when you're self-teaching

[PhilGould]

Here's hoping that someone here can give me some good, sensible advice on this question as I'm baffled.

I've been teaching myself for the last 6 months or so (seriously anyway) and I now really want to study classical music. But it seems that without lessons, I'm pretty much stuffed when it comes to making any sort of headway with studying piano because nearly every article, book or piece of sheet music I've seen seems to make a massive assumption that you have a teacher if you're wanting to play classical piano.

So I'm wondering how to approach a serious study of classical piano pieces and actually get something in terms of results. I know very little about classical music in terms of pieces/composer names other than a handful of well-known ones, which doesn't help either.

Any help is appreciated!

[boomboomdrums]

I don't have any really good answers here, but I'd love to hear from others. I am self taught at piano for the most part. I like to fool around with the easy/intermediate classical charts. But it is slow and hard. But when you get them down they sound really cool. Now as far as playing the real ones, gheez they look really hard. And I have small hands so some of the stuff is hard to reach.

Aside from the obvious, work on both hands separately and take it painstakingly slow at first, I don't have much else to offer.

Good question. I'll just sit back and see if anyone else knows anything better.

[1001gear]

Does classical music move you or are you just curious about it? Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, and Chopin would be the most accessible and genuine IMO. Hundreds of hours right there.

[girevik]

Originally Posted by PhilGould

Here's hoping that someone here can give me some good, sensible advice on this question as I'm baffled.

I've been teaching myself for the last 6 months or so (seriously anyway) and I now really want to study classical music. But it seems that without lessons, I'm pretty much stuffed when it comes to making any sort of headway with studying piano because nearly every article, book or piece of sheet music I've seen seems to make a massive assumption that you have a teacher if you're wanting to play classical piano.

Unfortunately, you are at a disadvantage not having a teacher to guide you in the study of classical piano. It really is worth the money to have a qualified human watch how you play, make sure you're shaping your hands the way they need to be shaped, you're using the right amount of arm weight (instead of relying on just finger pressure), etc. - all the things you should be doing to play efficiently and not suffer an injury.

The other reason people get a good teacher tends to be overlooked - and that is saving time: Time that you spend figuring out how you should practice, what pieces you might want to play, etc. 20 pounds of your money on a lesson might buy you back 100 pounds of your time.

I am currently using the Alfred Masterworks Edition of the Bach Inventions and Sinfonias to learn and practice No. 1 (C major) and No. 8 (F major). They sound like they'd be hard to play with both hands, and they are - but if you play one hand at a time is not that bad. This edition has fingering numbers that make these pieces much easier to learn. It took me several months before I could start playing both the right and left hand parts for No. 1 at the same time, but I was able to start playing each part by itself right away, because the fingering numbers made it so easy. After some time practicing Invention No. 1, I found other piano stuff to be easier to take on.

[Iamthesky]

Originally Posted by 1001gear

Does classical music move you or are you just curious about it? Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, and Chopin would be the most accessible and genuine IMO. Hundreds of hours right there.

Or you could go for my personal favourites, the 20th Century Soviets, like Shostakovich, Katchaturian, and Kabalevsky, and the Impressionists like Debussy and Ravel. If I'd have been stuck with the "traditional" composers I'd have lost interest well before I gained competence.

Chopin in particular gets my goat, can't stand his educational pieces -- you'll learn just as much (if not more) technique from playing Kabalevsky and won't be stuck with that same old stuff that even sounded boring the first time around.

I actually learned classical piano without ever playing "Fur Elise."

Just wanted to point out that the traditional classical composers aren't the only game in town.

[girevik]

Originally Posted by Iamthesky

Or you could go for my personal favourites, the 20th Century Soviets, like Shostakovich, Katchaturian, and Kabalevsky, and the Impressionists like Debussy and Ravel. If I'd have been stuck with the "traditional" composers I'd have lost interest well before I gained competence.

Chopin in particular gets my goat, can't stand his educational pieces -- you'll learn just as much (if not more) technique from playing Kabalevsky and won't be stuck with that same old stuff that even sounded boring the first time around.

I actually learned classical piano without ever playing "Fur Elise."

Just wanted to point out that the traditional classical composers aren't the only game in town.

I'm a fan of Chopin, Debussy, and more "modern" composers for the piano like Messaien. However, I never heard of anyone teaching Debussy-or-later material to students with 6 months or less total piano playing experience like the OP. Bartok's Mikrokosmos was supposed to be a "modern" piano method, but I showed it to a piano teacher and she thought it was too dangerous for a beginning piano student, in that it required some moves that could create bad habits or physically injure the student if he/she isn't careful.

What's your experience in teaching this stuff to beginner-level pianists?

[Iamthesky]

Originally Posted by girevik

What's your experience in teaching this stuff to beginner-level pianists?

None, to be fair, so you are almost certainly correct and I am in no position to contest that. I apologize if I gave the impression I was speaking from teaching experience.

I've only seen this from the student end, and that was from a long time ago. I was also coming from a background in classical recorder, so at least I was familiar with the treble clef and basic music theory.

But to come back to Kabalevsky, he did write a lot of material for children, which he used to teach his own classes. I was a student too long ago to remember at what stage I was introduced to his music.

Originally Posted by (we all know what this source is worth but it's convenient to quote) Wikipedia

Perhaps Kabalevsky's most important contribution to the world of music-making is his consistent efforts to connect children to music. Not only did he write music specifically directed at bridging the gap between children's technical skills and adult aesthetics, but during his lifetime he set up a pilot program of music education in twenty-five Soviet schools. Kabalevsky himself taught a class of seven-year-olds for a time, teaching them how to listen attentively and put their impressions into words. His writings on this subject were published in the United States in 1988 as Music and education: a composer writes about musical education.

I still hate Chopin student pieces at any level, though. Quickest way to drive me away from piano would have been to insist on that stuff. I personally find that music that goes "deedle-deedle-deedle" ad infinitum is just annoying and frustrating, no matter how much technique it imparts.

[girevik]

I'll check out Kabalevsky's music. Thanks!

I'm not familiar with the Chopin student pieces. I just know his "etudes" are way too advanced to be true "studies" for students looking to get started or advance from beginner to intermediate. My Debussy book has some pieces that are surprisingly Bach-like.

[Bosendorff]

Originally Posted by PhilGould

Here's hoping that someone here can give me some good, sensible advice on this question as I'm baffled.

I've been teaching myself for the last 6 months or so (seriously anyway) and I now really want to study classical music. But it seems that without lessons, I'm pretty much stuffed when it comes to making any sort of headway with studying piano because nearly every article, book or piece of sheet music I've seen seems to make a massive assumption that you have a teacher if you're wanting to play classical piano.

So I'm wondering how to approach a serious study of classical piano pieces and actually get something in terms of results. I know very little about classical music in terms of pieces/composer names other than a handful of well-known ones, which doesn't help either.

Any help is appreciated!

PhilGould : You are correct that without lessons, it's going to be very difficult and take you ten times longer to achieve results. Motivation and basics about proper technique (not to mention many other things) is very important when you begin studying classical piano, so I believe a good teacher is essential.

First define for yourself a few dozen classical piano pieces that you find moving or attract your interest. Each can be interesting in a different way - particular emotion, or melody or dynamics, etc. From there, with your teacher you'll be able to define what will motivate you and start on pieces of reasonable difficulty. A good teacher knows tons of pieces, their similarities in terms of melody, mood and so on and because of that can bring you alternatives to choose from. This way, if half of the pieces you find interesting are way too difficult for you, he/she will be able to find other interesting ones so you can gradually improve and eventually work on tougher works.

Classical piano is a lifetime process. So patience, acceptance to learn slowly and lots of practice are essential. Many students, regardless of age, who want to learn just to show off and impress their friends won't go very far and abandon fast. But if you are truly moved when you listen to classical piano music, you will discover a wonderful world which is endless.

[chevybusa]

Originally Posted by girevik

Unfortunately, you are at a disadvantage not having a teacher to guide you in the study of classical piano. It really is worth the money to have a qualified human watch how you play, make sure you're shaping your hands the way they need to be shaped, you're using the right amount of arm weight (instead of relying on just finger pressure), etc. - all the things you should be doing to play efficiently and not suffer an injury.

The other reason people get a good teacher tends to be overlooked - and that is saving time: Time that you spend figuring out how you should practice, what pieces you might want to play, etc. 20 pounds of your money on a lesson might buy you back 100 pounds of your time.

I am currently using the Alfred Masterworks Edition of the Bach Inventions and Sinfonias to learn and practice No. 1 (C major) and No. 8 (F major). They sound like they'd be hard to play with both hands, and they are - but if you play one hand at a time is not that bad. This edition has fingering numbers that make these pieces much easier to learn. It took me several months before I could start playing both the right and left hand parts for No. 1 at the same time, but I was able to start playing each part by itself right away, because the fingering numbers made it so easy. After some time practicing Invention No. 1, I found other piano stuff to be easier to take on.

+INFINITY!!!!!!! Unfortunately, there's really no way to self teach yourself classical piano, the thing is there are a lot of books and vids out there and whatnot, but you really do need a good teacher who will make sure you are using proper technique, will help you with what to practice to achive your goals (i,e, the Hanon book, etc.) AND to give you a solid foundation in theory....this is less important when just PLAYING pieces, however if you ever want to compose it really really helps...

I've been in a similar situation, however I was fortunate enough to have 2 years of classical guitar ledssons from a fantatsic teacher which really gave me a good solid foundation in theory....unfortunately when I switcehd tokeys I never did get a piano teacher cuz at first I was just adding strings, horns, synths, basslines and drums to my guitar comps, but I really wish I had, cuz even though I know my theory and can sight read and havew larned many classical pieces, I'm sure I'm fingering them the wrong way and my technique really sucks even though I canplay cleanly and in time, but would probably be a lot farther along now than I am if I had a good classical teacher...good luck!

[chevybusa]

Originally Posted by girevik

I'll check out Kabalevsky's music. Thanks!

I'm not familiar with the Chopin student pieces. I just know his "etudes" are way too advanced to be true "studies" for students looking to get started or advance from beginner to intermediate. My Debussy book has some pieces that are surprisingly Bach-like.

LOL +INIFNITY!!!! 2 of my all time fav classical pieces are his Oceans and Revolutionalry etudes, and like you said, some fucking studies!!!! LOL They really are rediculously hard for a student, I've been working on them for years and STILL can't do them cleanly at tempo....

[chevybusa]

Also just wanted to add that if you're gonna do it by yourself, it really helps to play with a metronome slowly with both hands of the piece, then build up from there...

[mmm]

This is a tricky one. As stated, a good teacher is always the best and fastest way to go.
If theres no possibility what so ever to get a teacher, then use the internet. There are alot of instructional videos and what not floating around, some good and some bad.

Here are some tips anyway.

The physical aspects:

1. Get to know your hand, arm and shoulders. How they feel when you play. Awareness of the different muscles will help you alot in playing correctly. When something hurts in a way thats not fatigue, you are doing it wrong. So become aware of how "things" feel and which part of what you`re actually using to press a key.

2. Take your time! Building strength is the same as going to the gym, it takes time to build up stamina and strength. Do regular technical exercises like Czerny and let it build up over time. This will then enable you to move on to more demanding pieces.

3. Dont overreach, start with pieces that you can actually master within a realistic timeframe. We all have to start somewhere and spending months on one passage will kill you inspiration and enjoyment.

The musical aspects:

1. Listen to different recordings of the pieces you want to play. Pay special attention to how the performer does the dynamics, tempo, pedaling etc and compare that to the score you`re using.

2. Make sure that the piece you want to play is actually so good that you want to spend months working on it.

3. Good luck, alot of classical music looks and sounds harder than it actually is to play.


I`ve been working as an associate professor in piano for several years and cannot stress how important it is to have a teacher, but it is possible to get good results without.

Regards, mmm

[1001gear]

Originally Posted by mmm

This is a tricky one. As stated, a good teacher is always the best and fastest way to go.
If theres no possibility what so ever to get a teacher, then use the internet. There are alot of instructional videos and what not floating around, some good and some bad.

Here are some tips anyway.

The physical aspects:

1. Get to know your hand, arm and shoulders. How they feel when you play. Awareness of the different muscles will help you alot in playing correctly. When something hurts in a way thats not fatigue, you are doing it wrong. So become aware of how "things" feel and which part of what you`re actually using to press a key.

2. Take your time! Building strength is the same as going to the gym, it takes time to build up stamina and strength. Do regular technical exercises like Czerny and let it build up over time. This will then enable you to move on to more demanding pieces.

3. Dont overreach, start with pieces that you can actually master within a realistic timeframe. We all have to start somewhere and spending months on one passage will kill you inspiration and enjoyment.

The musical aspects:

1. Listen to different recordings of the pieces you want to play. Pay special attention to how the performer does the dynamics, tempo, pedaling etc and compare that to the score you`re using.

2. Make sure that the piece you want to play is actually so good that you want to spend months working on it.

3. Good luck, alot of classical music looks and sounds harder than it actually is to play.


I`ve been working as an associate professor in piano for several years and cannot stress how important it is to have a teacher, but it is possible to get good results without.

Regards, mmm

I'd add to your musical aspects that in cases like this - for lack of a definition, the student should explore the literature to see if there is any musical connection to be had. More often than not there isn't. The student will settle on cool playable stuff and (maybe) learn to push the keys to that material. Nothing wrong I suppose but not a quest I'd want to waste words on. Perhaps the OP can offer more detail?

[pogo97]

see also this thread http://acapella.harmony-central.com/...ke-Superthread

[gregwar]

finding a great teacher like the others have said is good for technique. its really important that you practice "correctly" as forming bad habits can be really difficult to break and can cause long term injuries. often the teacher will be able to find fingerings better suited to the individual student

they will also be able to provide practices to increase coordination in all ten fingers, fingerings for scales, chords, etc. you might think scales and whatnot are boring and pointless but they really help solidify theory in a concrete way and once they're understood on a muscle memory level speed, improvisation, etc becomes much easier.

another thing about great teachers is their taste. this can help in selecting material but also how to play it. classical pieces are open to interpretation but its important not to break the rules before you learn them. hopefully refining your taste along the way and getting many cat stickers.

selecting a teacher is hard. one of the ways is to go to concerts of their students and see who's style resonates with you. for us they usually took place at churches and the university. another way is to ask performance students at the university who they studied under, who's some of the best teachers in town, etc.