Worth reviving old guitars?

[LeBerbs]

My very first guitar was an Epiphone strat-style with H/S/S pickup config. I stripped the paint and tried to stain it. It looked horrible because it was essentially plywood lol

At the moment, it's in pieces. No hardware, no nothing.

Is it worth the money to bring it back to life?

I'm talking new hardware and all.

[Mr.Grumpy]

...

Is it worth the money to bring it back to life?

I'm talking new hardware and all.

 

In a financial sense, most likely NO. Meaning that by the time you buy replacement hardware to make the guitar playable again, you will have spent more money than you could sell the guitar for. Or you could take that same money and buy a used Squier strat or Yamaha Pacifica that will probably play and sound as nice (if not better) as the Epiphone did when it was working.

 

If you have a sentimental attachment to the Epiphone, that's different. If you want to learn about guitar building and setup, that's different too. It'll still cost more money than the completed instrument will be worth, but you'll have hopefully gained some knowledge and skills that can serve you in the future.

 

But if you just want to start playing again as quickly and cheaply as possible, I really suggest just buying a lightly-used Squier or Yamaha Pacifica, or other recent inexpensive guitar.

[LeBerbs]

It's just a sentimental piece that I wanted to piece back together and have it be playable.

[AJ6stringsting]

I taught my self how to do the electronic and they are some great guys on this very site that can help out. I know , they pulled me though a dozen times already.

Good luck, have fun !!!!

[isaac42]

You can almost certainly piece it back together and have it be playable. As Mr.Grumpy pointed out, whether or not it's worth the cost and effort is up to you.

[WRGKMC]

Looks doesn't affect the sound or the playability. The old stones song says, Paint it Black was a common thing done to musical gear.

 

Go down to the local auto parts store. Buy a couple of cans of auto body paint, hang it and spray it with light coats. Be sure its sanded smooth first. let it dry for a few weeks then reassemble.

 

The parts are likely unique to that model. It may be strat like but the pickguard will likely be unique. The good part is you can find all the items on on EBay at budget prices. Salvage all the old parts you can and only buy the essential items you have to buy. I doubt you'd have to spend more then $100 getting it back in shape.

 

Main thing is you learned an extremely valuable lesson and it was learned on a budget guitar, not something more expensive.

 

1. You realize now when you removed that finish, you flushed your resale value down the toilet. When you add up supplies and chemicals and labor its likely going to cost $200 to refinish a $200 guitar that looses allot of that value.

 

2. Removing and refinishing a guitar takes allot more then will power. Its an art that has to be learned through experience. Much of that experience is gained through trial and error.

 

3. Refinishing and restoring a guitar costs money. Most of its is labor. Its not an investment which increases the value either. At best you may be able to maintain the resale value. The experience you gain by completing the job will be there for life so that's what you get out of it.

 

4. Guitars woods are not normally stained. To get different tints by using tinted lacquers. The pigment is mixed into the lacquer, not imbedded in the wood grain. Lighter woods act like a painters canvas. Its light color works with the semitransparent lacquers to create a variety of oranges, yellows greens etc.

 

Some quality woods may use stains to raise the grain. This is a process or applying stain then quickly wiping it off. The soft pulpy wood soaks the stain up and the hard tree rings don't. When you wipe it off, the hard rings stand out from the soft pulpy areas. Stains are usually chosen based on how well the hard rings stand out from the soft pulp. You don't want to have the hard and soft look the same. Plywood is not a candidate for raising the grain because its usually 90% soft pulp laminations with no hard rings. Its the way they cut the tree in rings like an onion, soak them, lay them flat and glue them together. There is no worthwhile wood grain to stain and the edges of the guitar are layers of lamination that soak up the stain like a sponge and turn way too dark.

 

5. Plywood guitars are normally painted with solid paints, or they may use the flat centers for a sunburst, but the edges are nearly always a dark color like black. The thing is plywood doesn't sound that bad on an electric guitar. It mainly depends on the number of layers, the type of plywood, and glues used. Its inexpensive and easy to work with. you just don't find them with natural finishes.

 

In fact the most important less you've learned is, any guitar with a solid finish is a B instrument. Your best wood grains go to building your A quality guitars with natural finishes. B quality are solid woods that have crummy wood grains that need to be covered up. It may be questionable if there's a big difference in wood tone but you are putting makeup on its face to cover it up.

 

A plywood guitar is a C quality instrument and you just stick a bag over its ugly face. You don't want to get a look at what's under that bag either. As you have discovered, its not pretty.

 

My advice is either sell it off in parts and try and get your money back or bring it back to life. The experience alone will go a long ways. You'll be able to take that experience and apply it to quality instruments down the road. Just be sure, next time, if you have a ding that needs repair or you get board with the color, post here first. Anyone who knows me knows I would have attempted to discourage you from refinishing a guitar. Its a crappy job and very difficult to do right. Its easy to fix up dings and its surely easier to just sell the instrument and buy something else if you're bored with the color.

 

Since you're half way into the job, it makes no sense to stop now. You chose the path the minute you put sand paper to it. You made some mistakes. Big deal. None of them haven't been done by the rest of us 10 fold. You'll feel allot better with yourself if you follow through. Even if its not a factory job you'll have a much greater appreciation for the artists in the industry who do fine work because you'll have attempted to do it yourself. It like running a marathon race and you've given up half way through. Butch up and complete the job. Even if you're the last runner to come in, you way more guts then the guy who gives up half way, and twice the balls of someone who only talk about doing it.

 

Get the job done, learn by your mistakes and if you ever attempt it again, First, have a plan, second have all those parts an supplies on hand before you ever begin. Third set up a schedule to get the work done and stick by it. The work isn't that hard. It just takes allot of skill and you don't acquire that skill by staring at a half completed job any more then staring at a guitar makes you a better player. You learn by doing, work in action so get back at it and post your results here. I want to see this instrument when you have it done.

[LeBerbs]

Awesome information

I have a glossy stain on the guitar right now. What is your recommended removal/sanding process to prep it for painting?

[WRGKMC]

What was the exact name of the stuff you used. I need to look at the MSDS sheets and find its chemical makeup.

There are three basic types used on instruments.

 

Alcohol based chemicals like lacquer and Varnish - these are the best on instruments because they are repairable. You can also buff out scratches and fix dings and dents easily. If you get a ding or scratch, new lacquer can be applied and it actually melts into the old coats to make one thick coat.

 

Poly finishes. 2 types, Water base acrylics and normal resins. These are plastic finishes and nothing will stick to them properly. They are a one shot deal, extremely hard to remove and very durable. Its impossible to make transparent repairs. The coats go on in layers like an onion. If you want to put something over it, use the same poly chemicals.

 

Oil based finishes and paints. Tung oil works very well on instruments. Its one of the easier finishes to apply. You can wipe it on or brush it. You can go minimal or you can build it up to thick layers that look like a high gloss lacquer. it can also be mixed with oil based stains and tint woods. I can verify this first hand. I bought dining room chairs that didn't match our mahogany table. I mixed mahogany stain with the Tung oil and applied layers till the color was dark enough then applied additional clear coats over. Its been 25 years and they show no signs of wear. Tung oil does yellow the wood to some degree so you have to take that into account.

 

 

Other oils, Linseed oil is commonly used on antiques. I don't advise it on instruments. It doesn't have the varnishes Tung oil has to cure it and water/sweat can leave stains. Oil based paints should never ever be used, especially Enamel. Oil paints can take years to cure. They harden from the outside in and lower layers can remain soft and move. Common issues would be dents in the finish just sitting it in a guitar stand for long periods. It can even stick to the stand and I've seen guitar cords made of vinyl react with the paint and melt into the surface, Sunlight can re-soften the paint and it can wrinkle.

 

Some chemicals can be over others but there's no guarantee they will last. Chemical rejection is a big problem. It can be immediate or take time. Best advice is if you begin with an alcohol based finish, stay with an alcohol based finish from beginning to end, and if possible by the same manufacture.

 

In general, do not put poly over lacquer. It wont stick and will tear off in sheets like sunburn.

Don't use lacquer over poly. Lacquer will chip off in large chunks the first time you bang the guitar.

You can apply lacquer over Tung oil or Tung oil over lacquer. I've done this with Minwax Tung oil successfully with no ill effects. I suspect its because there's a good deal of varnish in Tung oil which is a similar resin. I cant be sure about other manufacturers brands. They don't give you percentages of the chemicals in Tung so they can protect their formulas.

 

Primers like Shellac can be used with all of them. Its an extremely hard base and can be sanded super smooth before painting or applying poly or lacquer paints. If you've ever stripped a finished guitar down to the wood you likely got down to that last layer and it was like sanding through stone to get to the wood. Shellac seals the wood and keeps moisture out and it makes a super smooth layer for painting.

 

Fender guitars used to use a primer called Fullerplast. It was made by DuPont and allowed assembly line speed drying and painting. It had a number of issues over Fenders history. you can Google it up if you're interested.

 

Again, If I know what you used, I can advise you what you can do. you may be able to rough sand and then apply paint over what you have already.

 

If its something bad, you may have to re-strip it back down. I'll likely know because I've tried them all, both the correct combinations and the incorrect. My parents were into restoring antiques so I worked around them ever since I was about three and got into some cans of oil paint and proceeded to paint the cat and myself with oil based paints. Getting that off with turpentine as a child was a memorable experience. As I got older I was recruited to strip and refinish antiques on a regular basis. I'm surprised I haven't gotten cancer already when you consider how much paint remover lacquer thinner and paints I've come into contact with.

[LeBerbs]

http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/...ax-wood-finish

 

It was this. Can't remember the exact color though.

Doesn't explain why I have a gloss finish...I'll look at the can when I get home. This was done like 3 years ago. Can't remember clearly.

 

Parents have thrown away the stain...

[WRGKMC]

As per the Minwax site.

 

The colorants in Minwax® Wood Finish™ 250 VOC Compliant Stain are designed to be deposited in the wood pores, not on the surface of the wood. Any pigments allowed to remain on top of the wood will impair topcoat adhesion - causing the finish to peel.

we recommend topcoating all projects with a clear protective finish such as Minwax® Fast-Drying Polyurethane or Minwax® Polycrylic® Protective Finish. Sanding will result in the removal of some of the dyes and pigments in the stained wood. Since Minwax® Wood Finish™ 250 VOC Compliant stain does not raise the grain, no sanding is necessary before topcoating.

 

So, you have options. You can use tinted or colored poly to paint the body if you do no sanding. When working with poly you have to get it right the first time. You botch it and stripping it off is a bastard of a job because it dries so hard. It usually requires a heat gun and electric sander to remove.

 

Since this is oil based stain, you could mix more of the stain with Tung oil (like I did) and continue to apply the same color you have already. I suggest the high gloss Tung oil for a high luster. Since the stain would tint the Tung oil, you can brush it on and darken the lighter areas making the entire body the same color. You'll only be able to go darker, not lighter. Best suggestion is to use foam brushes and put on fairly thick layers. I'd buy about a dozen of them and use a new one for each coat. (they are cheap to buy, like $.50 each) You can lay the body down doing the front and back for this at first. be sure to let it dry well before applying new coats. Then hang it and do the sides and the rest of the coats.

 

Tung oil is tricky because it will run a bit if applied too thick. You want to apply it in a single pass. Don't go back over an area with a second wipe or you'll loose the gloss. Use single strokes the entire length of the body then start another row. If you have a flaw wait till it dries at least 24 hours or more the sand the blemish away and reapply a new coat over. Do the entire body with a single quick coat. do the sides first then the front and back so the front and back overlap the sides. Any brush strokes will overlap the sides that way where they wont be seen.

 

Pore some Tung oil in a container an mix the stain into the Tung oil a little at a time and mix. The Tung oil will get thinner as it gets darker.

Mix enough to apply a coat then remix a new batch for the next coat. Once you have the body tinted evenly and dark enough, then you can use the Tung oil without the stain as a clear coat.

 

 

When you're down to your last coat you may again want to lay the body face down and do a thick back coat, then do the same for the front. By laying it flat, you can go a little thicker and not get drips. This makes for a glass like finish when you're done. I always do the back before the front making the front the very last coat because that's the side people see the most.

 

After a week or so after the last coat you can then buff any flaws out with super find sand paper and steel wool. A small amount of gloss will be lost when you do this and how much is needed depends on how good that last coat was and whether you removed all the flaws sanding before that last coat. You can then take rubbing compound and polish it back up.

 

Tung is an incredibly hard finish, nearly as hard as poly, and much harder then lacquer. its not quite as transparent as lacquer or Poly but its got a great feel to it. It doesn't stick to your hands like a poly finish either.

 

You may be able to switch to a lacquer finish, but you have risks. You need to sand off the stain to have at least 50% or more bare wood. Apply shellac, then apply lacquer spray paint. The problem is the sides of the plywood have likely wicked up the stain a good 1/4" or more and you'll never get down to bare wood there and without getting down to raw wood this will cause an adhesion problem for the shellac. It may appear to stick ok but one sharp impact and the finish will break at its weakest point which is between the stain and shellac. You'd wind up having a chunk come off exposing the oil stain underneath.

 

I'd say either light sand it and go with a poly paint or do the tinted Tung oil. At least you know those two should stick pretty well.

 

[LeBerbs]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The poly paints are solid colors and the tung oil is somewhat of a finishing agent for stains?

 

I'd much rather do a solid color at this point. Kind of preserve sentimental value of it by not experimenting much more than I have. Plus that plywood looks ugly as hell.

 

What grit sandpapers should I work with?

Do I need to do the prime and sand combo before starting to paint?

Do I need to sand after my coats of paint?

Is there a finish I need to put on at the end of it all?

[LeBerbs]

I used some 220grit to sand the body.

There are still small hints of the glossy finish on the body. I assume they're fairly deep from sanding gouges I had done previously. Although, I can't feel the gouges. The 220grit made everything super smooth.

Is this acceptable to begin painting?

 

After some research, I've found that this is a Epiphone Fat 210. Features a laminated alder body with maple neck and maple fingerboard. The neck is stock and will remain stock.

Given we know the wood type. What kind of pickups would pair well with it?

 

I want the final product to look similar to this. Except black hardware instead of chrome. Thoughts, comments?

[LeBerbs]

Crap. What happened to my pictures?

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'm not sure - all the links are showing as broken in the original post though.

 

Did you try to upload them, or are they on another site (Photobucket, etc.) and you tried to link to them, or... ?

[WRGKMC]

You can only upload 2 or 3 pics per post at a time and they have to be a certain size. If they are too large they fail to load.

 

 

Black is one of the toughest colors to get right because every single flaw will stick out. I did find some duplicolor automotive high gloss black you could use. http://www.amazon.com/Dupli-Color-BUN0100-Universal-Exact-Match-Automotive/dp/B004TBOGPG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1434644949&sr=8-5&keywords=duplicolor+spray+paint

 

I'd top it off with polyurethans clear cost after painting. Be sure to sand paper everything baby butt smooth before you begin because paint does not fill in flaws. If you want you can use automotive primer too. This will allow you to sand it so its super smooth and get rid of all wood grain and scratches.

[LeBerbs]

I'm not sure - all the links are showing as broken in the original post though.

 

Did you try to upload them, or are they on another site (Photobucket, etc.) and you tried to link to them, or... ?

 

That's weird. I resized the photos to 1600x900 or the opposite for landscape. They were uploaded straight from my desktop. I'll try to fix it when I get home.

[LeBerbs]

You can only upload 2 or 3 pics per post at a time and they have to be a certain size. If they are too large they fail to load.

 

 

Black is one of the toughest colors to get right because every single flaw will stick out. I did find some duplicolor automotive high gloss black you could use. http://www.amazon.com/Dupli-Color-BUN0100-Universal-Exact-Match-Automotive/dp/B004TBOGPG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1434644949&sr=8-5&keywords=duplicolor+spray+paint

 

I'd top it off with polyurethans clear cost after painting. Be sure to sand paper everything baby butt smooth before you begin because paint does not fill in flaws. If you want you can use automotive primer too. This will allow you to sand it so its super smooth and get rid of all wood grain and scratches.

 

If that's the case, I may have to break up my posts to get all my pics uploaded. I didn't want to over-post like a jerk.

 

Ok. Just so I have this correct. I can primer and sand to get rid of flaws, wood grain, and scratches. Right?

Then, I can do a few layers of paint and clear coat after that? Do I have to wet sand the clear coat?

[WRGKMC]

 

If that's the case, I may have to break up my posts to get all my pics uploaded. I didn't want to over-post like a jerk.

 

Ok. Just so I have this correct. I can primer and sand to get rid of flaws, wood grain, and scratches. Right?

Then, I can do a few layers of paint and clear coat after that? Do I have to wet sand the clear coat?

 

You're dealing with poly, not lacquer. With lacquer you'd polish the last coat to a mirror shine.

Poly is a plastic coating. If you've ever used abrasives on plastic you'd know how difficult it is to get them to shine.

 

I'd do all my buffing to get rid of flaws before the last coat and do nothing after that last coat if possible. If you can get a smooth envelop of clear coat then there's no reason to buff and you save yourself a whole lot of wax on wax off BS.

 

If you have speckles from the spray can (you shouldn't but if you do) then you can use 00000 grade steel wool first for the tough areas and use circular motion. Then use something like 3M's Microfinishing Compound and finish that up with 3M's Finesse-It II.

 

You can use either a lambs wool or foam pads for buffing with a machine. Or you can use something like swirl remover by hand but in both cases you got to be careful of friction. Plastic melts as the temp goes up and you can burn through the finish if you don't use enough or use too much pressure. Guitar shops use a buffing wheels and use several different wheels with different grits of polishing compounds. Then they apply polish afterwards.

 

Again, how much buffing you need depends on how well you apply the poly. With lacquer you can get away with murder because each new coat melts into the old. So long as the coats are thick enough to allow buffing you're fine.

 

You can buy the foam buffing wheels for an electric drill. I'd be sure the drill has a variable speed and run it at a slow speed and keep adding the swirl remover to keep it lubricated. If you run dry it will leave burn marks in the finish. you can do it by hand too its just real slow going. Poly is hard stuff and getting it to polish up is best done by machine.

 

Don't get the swirl remover anywhere near your frets. It likely contains silicones and if you get silicone in the frets they can start popping out on you.

[LeBerbs]

Sounds like I'll be making a trip to harbor freight soon

 

Thanks for all the tips.

I reworked my pictures on the previous page. They seem to be showing up. Can y'all see them?

[WRGKMC]

No. I haven't had luck editing photos in threads that have already been posted. This site has glitches and that's one of them. Best you make new posts and limit yourself to three at a time.

 

Anyway good luck. Be sure to Google additional info and read the can. You can Google the msds specs on what's in the can. The more knowledgeable you are the better you can prepare to do a good job. I've done allot of refinishing in my time and I can say very few of them are perfect. Its something you have to do all the time or you loose the knack for doing it well. Preparing at least gets allot of possible accidents out of the way. Just be sure to use light coats and don't attempt to get it done all at once. 20 light coats will be better then three heavy ones and what you miss with those light coats will be covered on the next. Use a reflective light too so you can judge the amount of gloss when you're applying it. If it looks speckled you didn't use enough. Stop when it looks like a mirror so you avoid getting drip marks. Don't try and fix drips when its wet either, you'll only botch the thing up. Wait till its completely dry and lightly wet sand it away then continue. Same thing for insects or dust that might land on it when its wet. Don't try and remove them when wet, do it only when its completely dry. Chances are, the problem will have shrunk by then.

[LeBerbs]

Holy crap. I just went shopping for supplies. NOTHING in home depot had poly paint labeled. They had poly finishes?

I bought the rustoleum Primer/Filler to start with. Is this right? http://www.rustoleum.com/product-cat...r-primer-spray

 

Also, could I use the Rustoleum Automotive Enamel paint? I have no idea which ones are poly, lacquer, acrylic etc.

http://www.rustoleum.com/product-cat...omotive-enamel

 

 

Update: Just looked on autozone.com. They have that exact can you linked a few posts ago. I'll use that instead of the Rustoleum Automotive Enamel.

Could you link me you recommended clear coat for this?

[LeBerbs]

Before sanding.

[LeBerbs]

This is after sanding.

[LeBerbs]

The first coat of primer/filler.

 

After this I sanded it down with 220grit and it looked really good for that low of a grit.

 

[LeBerbs]

Little bit heavier 2nd coat of primer/filler.

 

 

I sanded the 2nd coat with a 320grit and stepped up to 400grit. It's nearly as smooth as I'd like it.

 

I think it's nearly ready for painting. I'm going to do another light coat of primer/filler tomorrow. Then, sand it lightly with some 400grit and finish it off with 600grit. Should be ready for painting after that.