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Refinishing help


rjbee

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Ok, so I've read the ReRanch 101 tutorial and being new to this I am a bit confused with some of the terminology so let me ask in terms I can understand. I have finished the primer coat on the body of my guitar and am ready for color. I'm using Fender black with a clear coat finish. I plan on doing about 3 coats of black then finishing with clearcoat. It is my understanding that I should wait approximately 30-60 minutes between coats of black. Do I then sand the next day before I apply the clearcoat. Then when doing multiple coats of clear, how often do I sand, after each coat, or after a few coats? Do I also wait the same time period in between coats as I did for the color?

Thank you for your advice

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Sanding is done through necessity, not by routine. If you use light coats when applying, you may not need to sand at all. If you apply too much too quickly or have a dirty dusty environment then you should get rid of any drip marks or foreign matter as you go. The key is flaws wont fix themselves by painting/finishing over them.

 

There are some other important items to note too. I suspect you'll be using rattle cans for this job. After each coat, turn the can upside down and push the nozzle down so the tube is clear and you don't leave paint or clear coat inside the nozzle that can harden and clog the thing up. Paint cans can shoot chunks of hardened paint or lacquer or clog completely and leave you with a partially fill can. Don't do it any more then needed of course. You don't want to loose all your propellant.

 

When I refinish, I mainly worry about the last coat or two. I don't do any sanding at all either on the paint or the clear coat up to that point. I've done allot of them however and pretty much know when things are going south and back off.

 

Time between coats will vary allot depending on temp and humidity levels. If you notice any whitish color when applying, that's a sign of moisture being trapped in the lacquer, and or you're applying too much at once. Lacquer is the only finish which the new coat melts into the previous coat to make one thick coat. All other finishes go on in layers like an onion skin and require sanding much more frequently. Lacquer will melt in any sanding marks so long as they are fine scratches and no dirt is left behind.

 

I'd start with fine strokes appox 6" away in a cris cross fashon. Don't worry if one area is a little thinner then another, you'll get it in the next pass. After waiting about an hour between coats and doing 3 or 4 in a day, let it set for the night and go back to it the next day. I don't try and do too many coats in the same day. Once its dry you can evaluate the work much better and hold it in a good light to see where the thin areas are and do any sanding the next day to fix flaws.

 

Good lighting when applying clear cost is important too. I judge the thickness of the application by its shine and having night reflect off it. This makes it much easier to gauge just how much is going on. The last coat is the most important. If you get it right you may not have to buff the finish much to get a glass look. If you over do it or under apply you'll have speckles that will need to be buffed out. I usually lay the body flat to to the top and go a little thicker to get that gloss and avoid drips. Then go back several days later and do the back the same way. Then when you're done let it set for a week before putting hardware in it. I'll apply a nice coat of paste wax before handling it too.

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I would recommend light sanding between the color and clear coat stages. Be very careful of sand-through - you don't want to go through it and into the primer, or you'll have to touch up the color with more coats and start over.

 

I don't think there's any advantage to sanding in between every coat of clear unless something goes wrong. In fact, I waited until I had all my clear coats finished, then let it sit for weeks until completely dry and just proceeded to the final progressive sanding and polishing. Black's a pretty unforgiving color though...

 

What are you using for the color and clear - nitro lacquer for both?

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Here's a couple of tutorials. Every one will have their own tricks and methods do don't be overly critical on the differences. I read things in both of these articles that made me wince, One guy suggests Acrylic Lacquer. I'd never use that crap myself because I know better. You're using the reranch stuff so you'll be fine. The first one is pretty typical and he covers most of the bases. I'd add, read the labels on the cans before beginning and follow application directions.

 

The second is a partial refinish that isn't taken down to the wood. If you take it down to the primer you'll be OK. I don't suggest trying to lacquer over poly for any reason because the stuff is going to chip off. Lacquer wont stick to plastic and Poly wont stick to lacquer. Like I said before if you start with Nitro finish with nitro and you'll have no issues with chemical rejection.

 

http://www.tundraman.com/Guitars/Finish/index.php

 

http://www.bc-enterprises.com/guitars/finish.htm

 

A little historic stuff. http://www.caraguitars.com/fullerplast.htm & http://www.gregsguitars.net/Vintage_Guitar_Finishes_X9F.html

 

This one is really detailed. Looks like it was a factory procedure. http://www.lmii.com/nitrocellulose-lacquer-solvent-based

 

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Thanks Phil. I am using reranch products' date=' Fender black for color and Gloss clear coat for finish, I believe they are nitro.[/quote']

 

I used the same products for one of my guitars (I used seafoam green) and I'm really happy with how it turned out. Good luck on your project - I'd love to see some pictures as it goes along... somewhere on the effects forum is a thread where I did a step by step of my various refinishing projects (A fiesta red Mustang, seafoam green Duo Sonic and a reliced shell pink Musicmaster), but I can't find / open them at the moment - but here's a video with the Duo Sonic shortly after I finished it, but before I put black covers on the Abagail Ybarra handwound pickups... the routing for the second pickup was done by my buddy Dennis Galuszka at the Fender Custom Shop...

 

[video=youtube;L9D2xMkrnVk]

 

I found a link, but unfortunately I wasn't able to get the HC thread to open up, but I did find a thread over on Shortscale.org where I had posted some of the various pictures of it, both as it was when I bought it, how it looked as I was working on it, and the completed guitar...

 

http://www.shortscale.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33370&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks Phil. I am using reranch products' date=' Fender black for color and Gloss clear coat for finish, I believe they are nitro.[/quote']

 

Let me chime in if its not too late. I only use nitrocellulose or water born cross linked lacquers - this only applies to that kind of finish. If your are using anything else you are on your own. Your finishing schedule will depend entirely on the way YOU apply your finish - the temperature that you are working at, how thin you apply the coats, whether you get sags or runs or dust in the finish. Each step depends on the previous one - if you screw it up go back and redo it.

 

OK, now the disclaimer. Nitro is dangerous, toxic and explosive. Do not spray indoors unless you have a fully ventilated paint booth (you wouldn't be asking these questions if you did). So spray outdoors, which unfortunately increases you chances of dust, bugs and other stuff getting in the finish. Wear a respirator.

 

Some people hang their guitars - I prefer to shoot it laying flat. I put a couple of blocks of wood in the pup cavities to hold it and place it on a stool so I can walk around it. If it doesn't have the neck on make a handle that is screwed into the neck pocket - that way you can spray the top, then flip it over and put it on the little blocks while you spray the back.

 

OK, assuming you have taken it to bare wood, pore fill and fill any imperfections in the wood. Sand thru the grits to at least 220, I would probably go to 320. Sand with the grain and get every previous sanding scrape out. Spray about 3 coats of your primer or sanding sealer one hour apart without sanding UNLESS you get runs, then stop, let it cure for a day and sand the runs out. Either way, let it cure at least four hours (overnight it better) and scruff sand to 220 or 320 - just scruff the surface and knock the dust off. Spray two or three more coats of primer/sealer and again, let dry overnight.

 

:Level this perfectly to 320. Be careful of sharp edges. You want to remove as much of the primer as possible leaving a perfectly level and smooth surface. If you go thru to bare wood, shoot a couple of coats of primer and let dry for several hours.

 

Now spray your color - three coats an hour apart. Don't sand between coats unless you get a sag or run, in that case stop, let it dry over night and level it out. Your color coats should go on wet looking but not sag, if they look like orange peal you are either not applying enough finish, its too cold or you're holding the can/gun to far from the surface. If you are happy with the finish after three coats you can stop - I often apply three more.

 

Sand very lightly with 600 (dry) to just scuff the surface and remove any bumps or pebbly texture. The entire guitar should be dull and smooth. Spray three coats of clear an hour apart without sanding (unless of course you get a run). Let dry overnight and sand to 400 or 600, then three more coats. Again, if you are happy at this point you can stop - I would normally apply three more (nine total).

 

Let the guitar cure for two weeks (they say four but I can never wait that long). Wet sand starting with 800 if there is any dust or pebbles, 1000 if there is not. Go thru all the grades (1000, 1200, 1500) to at least 1500 grit, 2000 is better (you can buy little packages of wet and dry paper at an auto parts store).

 

Last step is to buff with medium and fine polishing compounds - I use a pedestal buffer but a foam pad in a drill motor is OK and it can be done by hand.

 

Stand back, open a cold adult beverage and look at your reflection in your beautifully refinished guitar.

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Let me just add two final comments to make you feel better. Home finishing/refinishing is one of the hardest parts of guitar building for us non-professionals. I will be very honest in saying that most home finishes don't impress me at all. Some of that is the products available to us and our lack of experience with them, but a lot is simply that the finisher gets impatient with each step of the process. Nitro is very forgiving and easy to work with but you must give it perfect surfaces and adequate drying time.

 

Second, any classic car buff will tell you that black is the hardest color to get looking good. Again, any imperfection will show terribly. Take your time, be careful and patient and you will do just fine.

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I am now letting the final 12 layers of clear coat cure. It'a been one week and 3 more weeks to go, and even though I am in Tucson AZ it's probably still best to wait that long. Can I assume that there is no disadvantage to waiting too long?

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I am now letting the final 12 layers of clear coat cure. It'a been one week and 3 more weeks to go' date=' and even though I am in Tucson AZ it's probably still best to wait that long. Can I assume that there is no disadvantage to waiting too long?[/quote']

 

Extra time will not hurt a bit - its just hard to be patient. I have assembled guitars and played them, then taken them apart to do the final buffing after a month or so.

 

How did it come out? How about some pictures when it is all done?

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For some reason I am having no problem being patient with this project. I have a guy doing my new pickguard and he's waiting on the black white black tuxedo material to come in so I have to wait for that. All in all I'd rather deal with patience than screwing up what I've already done.

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I am now letting the final 12 layers of clear coat cure. It'a been one week and 3 more weeks to go' date=' and even though I am in Tucson AZ it's probably still best to wait that long. Can I assume that there is no disadvantage to waiting too long?[/quote']

 

It won't hurt anything by waiting... but it can cause problems if you don't wait long enough. For example, if the paint's too soft, the neck plate can sink in and embed an impression into the paint - for that reason, I'd recommend just letting it stay in pieces and continue to dry for at least three to four weeks. Since you're in Tucson (which is low humidity), it shouldn't need more time than that. Hopefully it's being kept in a warm location and not getting cold at night...

 

Patience is hard at this stage, but hang in there - it will be worth it! smile.png

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Ya'll giving me idears about fininishing a refinishing started 35 years ago on a mutt '66 Fender Mustang which has the Hammond Condor Innovex pup. LOL.

 

Do it! :philthumb:

 

I assume you have another guitar to play whilst you wait for desired finish?

 

It certainly helps - I don't know about you, but I couldn't go a month without playing while waiting for the finish to dry and harden.

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Lacquer is a resin that never truly dries, at least not until its really old and cracks and turns to powder.

 

I do suggest you hang the guitar even after its been assembled for awhile vs putting in one of those tubular guitar stands. You can sometimes develop marks in the finish resting in those stands. Also don't drape a guitar cord over the body and leave it there. There's something about the vinal or rubber in guitar cords the lacquer doesn't like. I suspect the cable gives off some kind of chemical vapor that reacts with the finish.

 

I had a guitar hanging in the studio and I have all kinds of wires and snakes running across the ceiling to connect mics. There was a cable drop where that guitar was hung and a mic cord was partially draped over the body. I probably hadn't played that guitar for a few months and the cord had melted a mark on the body. It had been a long time since I refinished that one too, at least 5 years. I think Nitro is a harder finish then the stuff I had used but I've since avoided leaving chords laying against the finish.

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