DJ/Musician

[RockViolin]

It comes up from time to time. DJs being called a musicians and some objections to it. I suppose I've been a bit ambivalent about it at times, compared to some of my peeps, which sort of surprises me. Maybe I trust that what truly separates one from the other is considerable and that the difference is evident enough for those who actually are musicians, and those who really care about such things. What the masses are calling them is something I have little power to change.

 

That said, florists are not necessarily gardeners. (Much like DJ's, they are primarily arrangers.) It's a mistake to go to one expecting to find the other, and acknowledging the difference does not diminish the value of either.

 

So perhaps a DJ really should be called something else. (I'm not sure why they were even called disc jockeys in the first place. Isn't the only thing going for a ride the disk... the turntable being the horse?)

 

Ditto for EDMers who mostly/only manipulate prefabricated bits and chunks. And does the act of placing specific samples here and there make a case for a designation of musician?

 

What to call them....hmmm?

 

Musicists?

 

Musiganizers?

[RockViolin]

Interesting thread. Conductors and arrangers may be musicians, but they have their own "labels."

 

As to DJs, I always favored "performing engineers." They take the skill sets engineers have, and basically put them on display on stage. Granted they also incorporate the skills of arrangers, but they need to be good engineers to arrange on the fly, in real time.

 

Thanks. I hope so. It might get really interesting if somebody wants to claim that DJs and loop/phrase/sample based performers actually are musicians.

 

I'm Ok with them thinking of themselves as artists. I might even roll with 'musical artist'. But after some thought I've modified my previous take on the matter and have decided that to be a musician involves a few requirements that have to be met. It is for me no longer a case of there being musicians and then there are musicians.

 

Yes, rare indeed is the conductor of any note that isn't proficient at a least one musical instrument. Many are pianists, and violinists seem to be quite common. Add to that the knowledge of the instrumentation they conduct, the ability to read a score, and they easily qualify as bonfide musicians. But a conductor by himself makes no sound, and when announced it's, "Andre Previn and the musicians of the Pittsburgh Symphony." I'm not really sure how much if any of a separation that's meant to imply.

 

And the typical, traditional arranger has to know his musical nuts and bolts about as we'll as a composer. Files under musician for me as well.

 

[RockViolin]

I guess we need to define the "minimum viable product" for musicians, at least in our culture.

 

1. Has physical dexterity on an instrument of choice.

2. Recombines 12 tones in different ways.

3. Can at least play other people's music (extra credit for composing original music).

4. Has practiced for years to become skilled at their chosen instrument.

5. Understands fundamental concepts of harmony and tempo.

 

I think a DJ hits most of those points, except for (2) - recombining 12 tones in different ways. But they recombine different pieces of music in different ways. Also (5) is somewhat of a stretch, because I know quite a few musicians who don't really understand the fundamentals of harmony...although they should...and DJs are really all about keys more than harmony so when they're crossfading tracks, it doesn't become a train wreck.

 

As to my definition of a musician, it's pretty broad: someone who manipulates sound in a unique way to create an emotional impact.

 

My previous definition was rather all encompassing as well. If someone is providing music for others to listen to beyond the simple playback of recorded music, they are for all intents and purposes the musician in the room. But if, say, YoYo Ma shows up, then a musician has arrived. So in that context, a DJ of the type that started the term would certainly not be a musician. And making sure the key signatures from one song to the next don't clash doesn't then make them a musician IMO. But I'll grant that a DJ isn't what it once was, and that there is some crossing over now.

 

Still, if someone heats a can of beans in pan does that make them a chef? If it takes them a year to get it right does that add credence to calling them a chef? Are they even a cook? And isn't there some gradation there, between a chef and a cook?

 

If I can patch all my gear together but I've never bothered to learn about mic placements and am useless with a soldering iron can I still be called an engineer?

 

How much do I have to know and what do I have to be able to do to be an electrician? It is surely more than just a bit of this and that. Does putting new fuses in my circuit box count? Putting in a new light switch? What if my neighbor wants me to do hers?

 

Musician has to be a BIG word though.

 

I'm sort of a go with the flow guy. As my previous take on this might indicate. Maybe some level of gradation goes without saying and that's still where I'll land. There is a chef and then there is a Chef. For hundreds of years though, at least, what it meant to be a musician involved the writing for, conducting of, or playing of a musical instrument. If one accepts that a musical instrument can be practically anything, then the sky is the limit, I guess. Or I might argue that a musical device is not a musical instrument and that the slapping together of some loops, some timely triggering and twirling of some nobs does not a musician make. Someone may spend years getting it right. There may be an art to it. But it is a relatively new and different process and after centuries of a musician being a fairly known quantity, well, I suppose I can see why some of my colleagues bristle.

 

Still on the fence.

 

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

I don't consider DJs musicians any more than I would call an artist who makes collages a painter. Like someone who does collages the DJ can be an artist, but by lumping them into the category of musicians simply muddies the waters.

 

A proficient musician should be able to take a music book and play every song in that book. Put "The Ultimate Fake Book" in front of a DJ and ask him or her to play every song in the book, and no matter how proficient the DJ is, it isn't going to happen. It's a different art form, and therefore needs a different classification.

 

Humans like to classify things, genus, species and so on. We like to notice differences between things and name them accordingly. And that's a good thing. We need to know the difference between the mushroom that will poison you and the mushroom that will nourish you. (And so on.)

 

So what do we call DJs to separate them from the musicians who can theoretically play any piece of music if their skills are up to that? Performance engineers? Too many syllables, and not easily understood by the general public.

 

As we dial phones that no longer have dials, most DJs no longer spin discs but I think they are stuck with that moniker. Wear it proudly.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

 

 

[RockViolin]

 

A good DJ doesn't heat a can of beans. A good DJ takes that can of beans, adds some kidney beans to give a harder texture, and great northern beans to balance the hardness with softness. The DJ then sautees the combination lightly with bacon to add some fat and taste, prepares a substantial garnish of arugula for bitterness and butter lettuce for a soft texture (and to offset the bitterness), puts the beans slightly on top of and to the side of the garnish, then grates a bit of parmesan on top.

 

But that's only a good DJ. Some DJ's just heat a can of beans in a pan.

 

 

I knew I was going to get that one isolated. As I've said, I grant there's some art and I'll add, some craft to being a DJ. And I'm sure that a good DJ brings even more of that. I didn't really intend for the beans comment to be a slam or for it to stick to DJs in particular. I was merely trying to say that in certain circles there can sometimes be a very low bar for a title that can in others carry a lot of weight. We have words like chef, and musician, and they can apparently fit a lot of bills. I think there are plenty of people who don't mind assuming the title, but have little to back it up with.

 

And it's not hard for me to imagine that somebody might walk into a cabin full of eh, loggers, and maybe there's one that begins to introduce everyone. He points over towards the stove and says, "And that there's Bob tending to the beans. He's the chef." Those beans are not likely getting the treatment you describe. And yet, in an off hand way Bob was referred to as a chef. It's this sort of *loose talk* that really muddies the waters. .png.197c47f720636f02390cc2b0a33804da.png' alt='smiley-veryhappy'>

[RockViolin]

 

 

I think a lot of the opinions on DJs are based on conflating mobile DJs with club/producer DJs. Many of the latter know how to play musical instruments, which really helps them with their DJing. So if you know how to play an instrument, but choose not to when working in a specific genre, does that mean you're not a musician...or that you choose not to be a musician in the traditional sense of the word?

 

 

 

 

If I'm a gardener working in my off hours as a florist, I can bring a gardener's sensibilities along with me and use them however they may apply, but I'm still a florist, in the business of selling flowers and flower arrangements, and to do that job requires no gardening skills.

 

In much the same way, it seems to me, a DJ might have and be able to make use of what has traditionally been a musician's skill set. And while it might not hurt to have those skills, and it seems likely that more and more it probably helps, it is hardly a requirement.

 

I think the question is, does a DJ incorporating an aspect or two that are usually the province of a musician then qualify as a musician? Or are they simply still a DJ that has something of a musician's background, or aspect that they can bring to bear?

 

 

[RockViolin]

Webster's dictionary says that a musician is an instrumentalist. "Especially".

 

 

Drum machines, sequencers, turntables, etc. are not musical instruments. They are musical playback devices. While there may be some resemblance, the triggering and manipulation of said devices is not the playing of a musical instrument. Therefore a DJ is not a musician.

A DJ might whip out a cow bell at some point, or give the old, "Hey, Ho" into a mic, and I suppose he is functioning somewhat as a musician at the time, but that isn't what the whole act hinges on.

 

To the extent that, for me, a deep understanding of music on some level, particularly the music that is commonly or frequently being performed helps make the case for musician, well I think it's fair to say DJs are certainly becoming more akin to musicians.

 

BTW, "someone who manipulates sound in a creative way to provide an emotional impact to an eager audience." could be a cheerleader with a megaphone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

 

Then I guess that means Jimi Hendrix, Tony Williams, Django Reinhardt, the Beatles, Slash, Eddie Van Halen, Danny Elfman (yes, the guy who scores movies!), and Eric Clapton aren't musicians...

 

I think you know what I mean and are using the argument for clarification of my point, so I'll continue.

 

There are exceptions to every rule. But someone can take their instruments and play any song in a music book written for their instrument.

 

Nobody can sightread music on DJ tools.

 

I don't want to take anything away from the skill set and/or artistry that a good DJ needs, and many of the skills are common to traditional musicians, but it still is a different path with different tools.

 

I keep returning to the painter / collagist comparison. Both create visual works of art and both are considered artists.

 

The painter uses paint, brushes, and other tools to create an original work of art.

 

The collagist uses clips from magazines, newspapers, fabric, to create a work of art.

 

Nobody is going to call the collagist a painter and I'm not going to call the musical collagist (the DJ) a musician.

 

Yet I agree both can create works of art.

 

Notes

 

BTW, I like Elfman's film scores a lot, they are delightfully quirky. And Danny can read music, he just can't sightread. Here is his answer in an interview with Jessica Lustig, "I knew how to write music but not read it - or at least I can only read it as fast as I can write it, which is not very fast."

 

[AlamoJoe]

 

A good DJ doesn't heat a can of beans. A good DJ takes that can of beans, adds some kidney beans to give a harder texture, and great northern beans to balance the hardness with softness. The DJ then sautees the combination lightly with bacon to add some fat and taste, prepares a substantial garnish of arugula for bitterness and butter lettuce for a soft texture (and to offset the bitterness), puts the beans slightly on top of and to the side of the garnish, then grates a bit of parmesan on top.

 

But that's only a good DJ. Some DJ's just heat a can of beans in a pan.

 

 

I don't know who this DJ is...But he's making me hungry for some creative bean cookery. I slow cooked a combo of Navy and Pintos this weekend and they were great...But there's some interesting ideas in this post.

 

I didn't use bacon though. I used a ham hock.

 

[davd_indigo]

It seems to me maybe a hybrid designation might be appropriate, such as "sonic artist". There are definitely skills that have developed (and even evolved) in the art form of DJing. I've thought about rap/hip hop music that it would be more appropriate to call it "enhanced spoken word". There are skills one needs to acquire and hone, but things like the refined harmonic language needed to play traditional pop, rock, (some rock) jazz and blues music are not really in play.

 

Of course the current younger set are likely more drawn to DJing, Hip Hopping and EDMing than the richness of Western harmony based music. Things go in cycles. The pendulum will likely swing again.

 

As for analogies (chef/cook , florist/gardener) I've had that thought that a DJ (as Craig describes) is something like a freestyle real time film editor working with various film clips. There are probably holes in this comparison.

[RockViolin]

Wo! Man Overboard!

 

 

Fortunately we still have the recipe for DJ beans, thanks to AlamoJoe.

 

Well, the last I heard, we had arrived at 'artist' as an acceptable category for DJs, which is something I'd touched on earlier in the thread. That works for me. Somehow the term musician became a catch all... practically as though everyone with a houseplant was a farmer.

 

Absurdities abound. Like when some of the richest "musicians" in the world can't carry a tune, much less sing.

 

So, it's settled then. DJs the world over may unite and raise their turntables in playback as they celebrate the day they were freed from the bondage of being called musicians. They are now artists in their own right, with all the rights and privileges thereof.

 

Notes, I think your analogy won the day. I was aware of the collage angle, but for better or worse tried to come up with my own. Anyway, I'll let you have honor of telling all the DJs that they're not musicians anymore while I get busy getting around to a few billion other people.

 

[RockViolin]

It seems to me maybe a hybrid designation might be appropriate, such as "sonic artist". There are definitely skills that have developed (and even evolved) in the art form of DJing. I've thought about rap/hip hop music that it would be more appropriate to call it "enhanced spoken word". There are skills one needs to acquire and hone, but things like the refined harmonic language needed to play traditional pop, rock, (some rock) jazz and blues music are not really in play.

 

Of course the current younger set are likely more drawn to DJing, Hip Hopping and EDMing than the richness of Western harmony based music. Things go in cycles. The pendulum will likely swing again.

 

As for analogies (chef/cook , florist/gardener) I've had that thought that a DJ (as Craig describes) is something like a freestyle real time film editor working with various film clips. There are probably holes in this comparison.

 

 

I think we can always count on the pendulum swing, at least in politics and fashion. Popular music is a lot like fashion. But it's been a while since that which became widely popular was also more complex and sophisticated, harmonically and melodically speaking. The trend seems to be going the other way, it seems to me, and has been for quite a while. The palletes of the masses get ever more accustomed to what's being served to them.

 

And just to clarify, my chef analogy was toward the word musician. Both words cover an enormous range of classifications, types, styles, and levels of expertise. Both words probably get used lightly and tossed around in equal measure as well.

 

Real time film editor works I suppose, but boils down to a collage approach all the same IMO.

 

 

[1001gear]

They juggle and recompile prerecorded music so how about, DJ?

[Notes_Norton]

As long as they aren't bigger and meaner than me and can run faster

 

Actually, I mean no disrespect by saying they aren't musicians. I just think the differences should be classified.

 

I have a couple of DJ friends who wouldn't be insulted. When I talk with them, we share our common issues, like reading the audience. While they don't play musical instruments, we do have a lot in common.

[RockViolin]

They juggle and recompile prerecorded music so how about' date=' DJ?[/quote']

 

Whatever. They might call themselves quite a few things, but in certain circles there's one thing they should maybe be wary of.

[Luke17]

 

I don't know who this DJ is...But he's making me hungry for some creative bean cookery. I slow cooked a combo of Navy and Pintos this weekend and they were great...But there's some interesting ideas in this post.

 

I didn't use bacon though. I used a ham hock.

 

Those Beans sound deelish AJ. ..with a nice chunk of cornbread with some sweet butter...Nirvana.

 

Ham Hocks Rock.

 

I use them in my Mustard Greens, Kale and Collards.

 

 

[AlamoJoe]

Those Beans sound deelish AJ. ..with a nice chunk of cornbread with some sweet butter...Nirvana.

 

Ham Hocks Rock.

 

I use them in my Mustard Greens, Kale and Collards.

 

 

I did indeed make some Johnny Cake to go with Luke.....I use ham hocks when I cook greens too....But you did me a solid here...I usually cook mustards, collards, and turnip greens together. Never thought about throwing kale in the mix. Sounds capital! Maybe all four!

 

I usually make a potato and cheese family recipe, and take my greens, washed and cut up along with my outside propane setup to my Sister's for Thanksgiving, and cook the greens up outside while the meal all comes together.....Cuz My Sweet Lord greens do stink like all getout whilst cooking. There's never any left though. Those two dishes and a couple of pies are all I take and Sis does the heavy lifting with the Bird and all the other sides.

 

The wife does usually make some deviled eggs though....You have to strike quick to get one with our bunch.

[RockViolin]

Now, of course, if a DJ eats enough beans, even DJ beans...