Members Anderton Posted December 10, 2015 Members Share Posted December 10, 2015 I was intrigued by the Audio Sprockets banner ad about their hardware acoustic guitar processor. I saw a demo at NAMM that was quite impressive, and it seems they're going to take it further. They're not alone in their feelings about piezos...being frustrated by the sound of piezos, I came up with an acoustic guitar amp sim for SONAR (for details, click here and go to page 14). What Audio Sprockets is doing is more involved, but it seems they have the same frustration with piezo sound as I do. Which got me thinking... How do you handle acoustic guitars live and in the studio? Of course miking with a really nice mic is one option, but that has its own complications. Do you use the piezo and if so, how to do you process it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 How do you handle acoustic guitars live and in the studio? Live, I usually suck it up and use an onboard piezo pickup because I'm too cheap (and play live so infrequently) to go buy a Sunrise or something really nice. In the studio, I nearly always use a mic or two; I try to avoid using a piezo pickup on recordings unless I have no choice and there's just no other viable option. Of course miking with a really nice mic is one option, but that has its own complications. Isolation being the biggest one. I get around that by putting the acoustic in another room or into an iso booth if possible. If it's not, then I consider doing it as an overdub, and if I have to have it with the band for some reason while we're laying down rhythm section tracks, then I might use the pickup, then replace the track with a re-recorded one later. Do you use the piezo and if so, how to do you process it? Again, I tend to use it only if I have to and there's no other choice. As far as processing, I've never found anything that totally kills the quack of a piezo, but using a preamp with a very, very high input impedance seems to help a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted December 10, 2015 Members Share Posted December 10, 2015 I was intrigued by the Audio Sprockets banner ad about their hardware acoustic guitar processor. I saw a demo at NAMM that was quite impressive, and it seems they're going to take it further. They're not alone in their feelings about piezos...being frustrated by the sound of piezos, I came up with an acoustic guitar amp sim for SONAR (for details, click here and go to page 14). What Audio Sprockets is doing is more involved, but it seems they have the same frustration with piezo sound as I do. Which got me thinking... How do you handle acoustic guitars live and in the studio? Of course miking with a really nice mic is one option, but that has its own complications. Do you use the piezo and if so, how to do you process it? I use mics live and in studio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted December 10, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 I use mics and don't worry about isolation. For live work, if someone has a pickup, I'll usually take a feed from it and use it in the monitors - it's probably what they're used to hearing. But unless it's a player who can't stand close to a mic, I'll use a mic, too, and that's usually what the audience hears unless the pickup sounds really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 10, 2015 Members Share Posted December 10, 2015 How do you handle acoustic guitars live and in the studio? Of course miking with a really nice mic is one option, but that has its own complications. Do you use the piezo and if so, how to do you process it? Always a microphone. I like the sound of that. I've done all sorts of microphone configurations, but for the past several years, I've used an LDC right in front of where the body meets the neck. I begin miking about two feet back and move it forward or backward depending on what I want. I often don't record with any other instruments, maybe just a vocalist, and if that's the case, I don't worry about isolation. If it's with an ensemble and I need isolation, I'll put baffles or, if absolutely necessary, move to another room or far across the room. I don't like the sound of piezos and don't bother using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 For my steel string acoustic, it's just my small condensor, Octava MK-012 about six inches from the guitar, pointed at the body/neck intersection. Sometimes I move it back at bit if I want less transient activity. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to mic my nylon-string classical guitar. I am so in love with this new guitar, but getting the right balance of tone, attack, fullness, sustain, and evenness in volume is eluding me. I might need a different mic - and/ or pre - and/or altered playing technique. To get lots of attack for soloing I close-mic, but I also pick up way too much finger and hand-instigated noise. To get a nice, smooth tone I'll move the mic back, but then the punch suffers. I'm thinking maybe a combo approach - a piezo inside plus an external condensor, blended, may be the way to go. Any advice appreciated. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 For my steel string acoustic, it's just my small condensor, Octava MK-012 about six inches from the guitar, pointed at the body/neck intersection. Sometimes I move it back at bit if I want less transient activity. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to mic my nylon-string classical guitar. I am so in love with this new guitar, but getting the right balance of tone, attack, fullness, sustain, and evenness in volume is eluding me. I might need a different mic - and/ or pre - and/or altered playing technique. To get lots of attack for soloing I close-mic, but I also pick up way too much finger and hand-instigated noise. To get a nice, smooth tone I'll move the mic back, but then the punch suffers. I'm thinking maybe a combo approach - a piezo inside plus an external condensor, blended, may be the way to go. Any advice appreciated. nat whilk ii I strongly prefer to start as I described above, and if the room is great, I leave it. I'll apply some compression going to, uh, hard drive. If the room is not great sounding, I place two RealTraps around the mic, but still leave it relatively far away unless I really want to have a close mic. If I must have a close mic, I'll place the mic under the sound hole, perpendicular to the body of the guitar, and I find that I frequently get a decent sound from that. If it is too close, I back it off. If I need more of something else, I might place another mic either above, aimed down at the nylon acoustic, or keep one in my "default" starting position, moving either around until they sum to mono perfectly with the other mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 I strongly prefer to start as I described above, and if the room is great, I leave it. I'll apply some compression going to, uh, hard drive. If the room is not great sounding, I place two RealTraps around the mic, but still leave it relatively far away unless I really want to have a close mic. If I must have a close mic, I'll place the mic under the sound hole, perpendicular to the body of the guitar, and I find that I frequently get a decent sound from that. If it is too close, I back it off. If I need more of something else, I might place another mic either above, aimed down at the nylon acoustic, or keep one in my "default" starting position, moving either around until they sum to mono perfectly with the other mic. Thx, Ken - I'll try that. I've got a large condensor I can try for the 2nd mic. And I've got your old SE Reflexion filter to help cancel the sound of my tiny 9' x 10' studio. I do track through my RNC on super-nice, very low ratio. Why not? I can't think of anything I live-record that doesn't need some compression, so might as well start off that way. Some people rave about the dynamic Sennheiser 441s as good for classical guitar - anyone have experience with that? nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 My favorite way for many years now is using a combination of an AKG C414 mike and a Lace California Acoustic sound-hole pickup and blend to taste. I don't do live sound anymore, at least not at the moment. Just studio these days. I isolate and add digital ambiance. The room I record in is as dead as I can get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 For my steel string acoustic, it's just my small condensor, Octava MK-012 about six inches from the guitar, pointed at the body/neck intersection. Sometimes I move it back at bit if I want less transient activity. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to mic my nylon-string classical guitar. I am so in love with this new guitar, but getting the right balance of tone, attack, fullness, sustain, and evenness in volume is eluding me. I might need a different mic - and/ or pre - and/or altered playing technique. To get lots of attack for soloing I close-mic, but I also pick up way too much finger and hand-instigated noise. To get a nice, smooth tone I'll move the mic back, but then the punch suffers. I'm thinking maybe a combo approach - a piezo inside plus an external condensor, blended, may be the way to go. Any advice appreciated. nat whilk ii If you have a second MK-012, try setting them up in an XY stereo configuration, with the microphones placed about 18-24" in front of the soundhole. Because they're in XY, neither mic will be pointed directly at the hole (or your / the player's right hand) so there won't be the bass boom you'd normally get when pointing a mic right at the hole, but it can still give you a very balanced sound, with good attack, resonance and tone. The playing dynamics are still going to be up to the player, but you can help with evening that out a bit with your RNC if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 When I was young, if would try every possible combination. I figured the way you learn is by experimentation -- and it was a great teacher. But the one thing I don't recall ever having an success with was getting a decent recording from an acoustic with a pickup. Some of that, to be sure, was circumstance. I have seen/heard (on rare occasions), decent sound from (high end) pickups or pickup and mic combinations -- but in my often low end experience, I've never got anywhere close to where I wanted to be with various contact mics, piezo, or electromagnetic pickups. For stage work I did use a contact mic on my classical into a Passac EQ-100 EQ/'preamp' (more an active direct box, hardly any gain) which did OK-ish -- and then the same Passac 'pedal' with my Ovation Celebrity shallow-cutaway with built-in piezo, which was a lot less groovy. I spent several long sessions at home with my own PA trying to find the 'magic' setting for the guitar and pedal and never came up with anything I didn't sorta hate. Ultimately, I just started showing up with my conventional [no p/u] dreadnaught and saying to the balking sound guy, Look, if an extra mic is that much trouble, I have one in the car -- or just give me one mic and I'll use it for both vocal and guitar. They usually gave in. But never without lots of whining. And a little feedback. Of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sailorman Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 Haven't been recording in several years, since my band got back together. But I remember trying everything to get a satisfactory sound from my acoustics; a Martin J40M and a Jesus Marzal classical. Most of the time I used a pair of Rode NT5's, either in an XY or with one pointing at the neck/body joint and one down past the sound hole. One day I was recording my classical, and it just was not sounding like it did to me as a player. I remembered something I'd read somewhere and set up a Rode NTK roughly 4 feet off the floor, 2 feet in front of me roughly even with my right elbow. Oh my what a lovely sound. That in combination with the NT5 at the neck/body let me dial in what to my amateur ears sounds just fantastic. I've never achieved any sort of success with a pickup but I don't have anything decent to try at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 Speaking of recording and live... I was just listening to Guy Clark, Live from Austin, TX -- and as much as I love Guy's leathery voice and songs, the sound of his acoustic guitar with pick-up is so annoying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 Thx, Ken - I'll try that. I've got a large condensor I can try for the 2nd mic. And I've got your old SE Reflexion filter to help cancel the sound of my tiny 9' x 10' studio. I do track through my RNC on super-nice, very low ratio. Why not? I can't think of anything I live-record that doesn't need some compression, so might as well start off that way. Some people rave about the dynamic Sennheiser 441s as good for classical guitar - anyone have experience with that? nat whilk ii That's a dynamic, isn't it? That wouldn't be my first choice, but who knows. I've used it for vocals with good success, but not sure about classical guitar. Maybe it would mix well when paired with an LDC? An RNC in Super Nice Mode is useful. You want to ideally get the settings between not bringing up the room too much and not pumping and breathing audibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 If you have a second MK-012, try setting them up in an XY stereo configuration, with the microphones placed about 18-24" in front of the soundhole. Because they're in XY, neither mic will be pointed directly at the hole (or your / the player's right hand) so there won't be the bass boom you'd normally get when pointing a mic right at the hole, but it can still give you a very balanced sound, with good attack, resonance and tone. The playing dynamics are still going to be up to the player, but you can help with evening that out a bit with your RNC if needed. thx, Phil. Unfortunately I don't have a 2nd MK-012. Should have bought two of them when GC was blowing them out for about $90. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted December 11, 2015 Members Share Posted December 11, 2015 That's a dynamic, isn't it? That wouldn't be my first choice, but who knows. I've used it for vocals with good success, but not sure about classical guitar. Maybe it would mix well when paired with an LDC? An RNC in Super Nice Mode is useful. You want to ideally get the settings between not bringing up the room too much and not pumping and breathing audibly. Yeah, the dynamic that doesn't act like a dynamic by all reports. Supposed to be super for micing guitar cabs, too. And works on some vocals. I'm learning that recording a relatively soft-volume instrument like a classical guitar means you have to work really hard just keeping your body and other noise sources quiet - rustling clothes, creaking chair, any neck squeaks or bumps, just breathing too loud, airplanes droning somewhere...it all comes through. Maybe I'll record naked, dusted down with baby powder, with a face mask, sitting on pillows, in a bomb shelter. I'll have you come take a picture - it'll be my album cover:) nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Maybe I'll record naked, dusted down with baby powder, with a face mask, sitting on pillows, in a bomb shelter. Crud - you've stumbled across one of my secret recording tricks! It really can be a PITA to record acoustics - especially quiet, fingerstyle stuff or classical. All you can do is be aware of the issues and try to minimize them as much as you can. Beyond that, a bit of that "noise" is expected and part of the deal IMO. I'll have you come take a picture - it'll be my album cover Maybe YOU could pull that off, but I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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