Warmers and Saturators? Do you use 'em on your digital audio?

[rasputin1963]

Guys, are you fond of the sound that Warmers and Saturators and Tube Emulators and Tape Emulators impart to your digital tracks? They definitely give a buzzy "warmth" and slightly compressed "punchiness" that can quickly get muddy and dirty if you set the thing to Stun. Do they make, let's say, an acoustic guitar track sound less "chilly" and "sterile"? Your thoughts?

[Beck]

I'm not a fan of any plugins I'm familiar with for this purpose. I'm of the opinion that you can't fix digital with digital, but I'm in the minority. However, I use real tubes and analog tape, which I feel make a big difference and I will use those tools in my studio as long as I can hear a difference.

 

On the multitracking side of things I have a hybrid analog/digital setup synced with SMPTE. Everything is recorded to tape first, then transferred to digital @ 24/48. (I don't detect a measurable difference at 96k or above. IMO at least with the converters I use, 48k sampling rate is more than enough). I master to 2-track (Half-track) 1/4" analog tape @ 15 ips. I can drop down to 7.5 ips for more of an obvious tape effect or use a tape with more "analog smear" like 3M/Scotch 206. But real tape @ 15 ips is pretty clean compared to pugs that try to emulate it.

[Ernest Buckley]

Guys' date=' are you fond of the sound that Warmers and Saturators and Tube Emulators and Tape Emulators impart to your digital tracks? They definitely give a buzzy "warmth" and slightly compressed "punchiness" that can quickly get muddy and dirty if you set the thing to Stun. Do they make, let's say, an acoustic guitar track sound less "chilly" and "sterile"? Your thoughts?[/quote']

 

I don`t own any warmers/saturators, tube emulators or tape emulators. However, if I need to warm up a mix, I`ll send out the stereo mix to my 737s to warm up the signal. I`ll also EQ the signal a bit to get rid of those overally bright/harsh freqs.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I really like Dave Hill's (Crane Song) Phoenix, and the add-on he developed for Pro Tools HD called HEAT. I use both fairly regularly. I also like the UAD-2 Ampex and Studer tape sims. Slate VTM is also good IMHO.

 

Of course, I've also been known to track on analog then transfer to digital, or fly various combinations of digitally-recorded tracks over to analog tape and then back to the DAW, and/or mix to tape too.

[MikeRivers]

Not me. If something's supposed to sound warm (whatever that means) and doesn't, I figure out why and fix it before recording it. I don't record things that need to be "saturated," and although I much preferred the workflow of tape to a DAW, having no flutter is better than any "tape emulation" I can dream of. Let's see - what did I forget?

 

Tube emulators? Who wants another thing that adds distortion and hum? I have other ways to get them if I want them, but I don't.

 

[nat whilk II]

I like the Waves Kramer Master Tape plugin quite a lot. Used judiciously, it definitely does that analog glue/warmth thing quite nicely. Used radically it's fun to play with for effects.

 

I put the thing on single tracks usually for drums and bass parts as I greatly love saturated sounds on those tracks. It can also lightly sand down brittle edges in the upper frequencies of vocals, and can take some of the fizz off of emulated electric guitar distortion or B-3 leslie emulators.

 

When I've tried it on the master bus - usually I think it sounds good at first, then later I find myself dialing it back down or removing it entirely as it's not friendly to just anything and everything in my mixes. But I've left it on some simpler mixes of rock material where delicacy was not the point.

 

I have some general ideas about plugins, but few if any fixed notions about them - I just stick them on tracks, twiddle the knobs, listen to what they do, and take it from there.

 

nat whilk ii

 

[UstadKhanAli]

Guys' date=' are you fond of the sound that Warmers and Saturators and Tube Emulators and Tape Emulators impart to your digital tracks? They definitely give a buzzy "warmth" and slightly compressed "punchiness" that can quickly get muddy and dirty if you set the thing to Stun. Do they make, let's say, an acoustic guitar track sound less "chilly" and "sterile"? Your thoughts?[/quote']

 

Sort of. I'll try one out if it can change the character of something - or more likely, several things - for the better. Not necessarily "warming", but just seeing if I like the character of something more. That said, if I am running a rhythm track or other things through an aux buss or even a master buss and can add a little "glue" through a Massey Tape-Head or something else, I'll do it.

 

I don't know very much about "saturation" or "warming" other than they often add a nice sort of compression and a little pleasing harmonic distortion or whatever. I'm more interested in the change in character and the "glue" factor, the reason being that I've already run my audio through a tube microphone, tube mic preamps, something with a transformer, an RNC RNLA, or something similar if I want that sort of sound already.

[UstadKhanAli]

Tube emulators? Who wants another thing that adds distortion and hum? I have other ways to get them if I want them, but I don't.

 

Do tube emulators add hum? I only use the Massey Tape-Head, which to my ear doesn't sound very much like tape saturation at all...but sometimes, it adds a character that I like, so I'll use it to maybe "glue" a few elements together (see previous post). Or not. Depends.

 

 

[Beck]

I like the Waves Kramer Master Tape plugin quite a lot. Used judiciously, it definitely does that analog glue/warmth thing quite nicely. Used radically it's fun to play with for effects.

 

 

I will give credit to Waves for having people on board that knew what they were doing as far as background with analog, and for their choice of tape to emulate, 3M/Scotch 206/207. I have lots of NOS 207 tape left and I like it and Ampex/Quantegy 407 for mastering. As for the process of actually emulating a blank recording medium, I'm a bit of a skeptic. But if it works for people the particulars don't matter.

[UstadKhanAli]

To me, the Massey Tape-Head doesn't sound anything like real tape, certainly none I've ever used. But it can be useful. That's all I care about. They could have called it "Cool Sounding Whatchamacallit" or "Glue" or "Seriously Colored Compressor" or whatever. I don't really care. I just care whether it's useful or not.

 

My real tubes sound good. I don't know how much they sound like their modeled counterparts, but regardless, I use real tubes because whatever the thing is - microphone, mic preamp, whatever - that I'm using sounds good. The transformer in my Neve preamp seems to impart a greater amount of "color" than my tubes anyway. But I don't really care. I'm just trying to get stuff to sound great.

[MikeRivers]

Do tube emulators add hum?

 

There should be a knob on there for it. While tubes themselves don't cause hum, it's hard to build a tube-based device that's as hum-free as a solid state device. At least one tape simulator has hum, as well as wow and flutter, and I've seen a tone wheel organ simultor with a hum control.

 

[MikeRivers]

 

I'll use it to maybe "glue" a few elements together.

 

 

What does "glue" mean? I have a rough idea of "tape" and "warm" but I have no idea of what something that's unglued sounds like.

 

[rasputin1963]

I may be wrong, but I think "glue" is the "pleasant smear" of tones between two sympathetic instruments... I have currently two tracks, an acoustic guitar and an upright bass track. I notice that these tube warmers render the lower mids and bass much more indistinct... as to their "edges"-- where one sonority ends and the other begins. But it must be, as you say, an aesthetic... Right now, both tracks are very sparkling and crystalline (recorded at 96Hz/24-bit)... You can hear every string being plucked. I think it sounds great, really. But maybe, in some artistic/genre cases, you might want their blend to be "punky" (blunted) and (that word again) "warm"...? The warming I added makes the combination sound very 1960's to my ears... where you just hear a soupy, furry rumble of harmonies. Something that Phil Spector was deliberately after in his day. The warming also muddles the usual ADSR envelope of a note being struck; instead of hearing the full, clean development of the envelope, you get more of a "PWOP" kind of sound...

 

[rasputin1963]

I've been listening to those CHESKY Demonstration Discs... Do you know 'em? They present a series of digital musical mixes, and a man on the recording tells you what's good about them; they are presented as being the very pinnacle of good, orthodox, digital stereo mixing. Anyway, I think any kind of "warming" would be anathema to the Chesky folks, because they are championing an absolutely crystalline, transparent sound in every way.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

What does "glue" mean? I have a rough idea of "tape" and "warm" but I have no idea of what something that's unglued sounds like.

 

I don't know how you define that, but there's a more cohesive quality, with everything "playing" together, that sometimes occurs when you are running things through the same effect. This can happen (in obviously different ways) if you use the same reverb on several instruments, run several instruments through an aux buss and then through a compressor, or with a tape saturation emulation thingy (which again, as mentioned above, can act as a "colored compressor" of sorts, at least the way I use it).

[MikeRivers]

 

I don't know how you define that, but there's a more cohesive quality, with everything "playing" together, that sometimes occurs when you are running things through the same effect. This can happen (in obviously different ways) if you use the same reverb on several instruments, run several instruments through an aux buss and then through a compressor, or with a tape saturation emulation thingy (which again, as mentioned above, can act as a "colored compressor" of sorts, at least the way I use it).

 

Oh, well maybe I've been gluing things together using natural hide glue instead of these newfangled polyglopelene synthetics. Record a bunch of musicians playing together in a decent sounding room without using too many mics and you have "natrual glue," I guess. I'll typically run everything that I think needs some reverb through the same reverb because I only have one. Well, OK, I have two, but one sounds better than the other so that's the one I use.

 

I never really understood the concept of giving every instrument its own reverb environment. Maybe by doing that, you un-glue things, and then you have to glue them together again.

 

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Oh, well maybe I've been gluing things together using natural hide glue instead of these newfangled polyglopelene synthetics. Record a bunch of musicians playing together in a decent sounding room without using too many mics and you have "natrual glue," I guess.

 

You get "glue" because of leakage, and if you have room mics up, that tends to "glue" things together as well.

 

I'll typically run everything that I think needs some reverb through the same reverb because I only have one. Well, OK, I have two, but one sounds better than the other so that's the one I use.

 

Same here.

 

I never really understood the concept of giving every instrument its own reverb environment. Maybe by doing that, you un-glue things, and then you have to glue them together again.

 

I strongly prefer using one reverb for everything, and quite often, one delay for everything. I'll use a second reverb if I want a very specific effect, but this doesn't happen very often.

 

[UstadKhanAli]

And remember, while you and I frequently record people playing together in a room, not everyone does. Whether it's overdubs, drum machines, people going DI, virtual instruments, whatever, sometimes things benefit from being "glued" together.

 

I record a lot of different things in a lot of different scenarios, so I do everything from acoustic stuff with everyone in a room to people in different corners of the globe contributing to electronic music to combinations of everything, and sometimes, it's good to have other methods up your sleeve if you can't say, "Hey everyone, gather around in a circle and start playing!" Sometimes, that's completely impossible, and in some genres of music, possibly inappropriate.

[philboking]

I do have a couple of things I've used before.

 

One is a Gates Level Devil that I had fished out of a radio station dumpster and restored. (I think I posted a blog thread here about the restoration, if I recall correctly.) Although mono, it has about 12 tubes. It will provide something like 15 dB of expansion and 20 dB of compression automagically. The only controls are off/on and a switch inside that allows disabling either compression or expansion. It has some really nice transformer & tube sound, and definitely provides a color all its own. And, of course, it can really even out the levels on an performance that is too dynamic. It does not have definite phase shift properties so mixing the output back in with the dry track creates a lot of phasing/flamming effects.

 

Another is a Teac 3340s 1/4" 4-track, which I will sometimes use to bounce rthym (dang, I can never spell that right), drum and backing vocal stem mixes through. The input level can be used to add saturation, but I don't get crazy with it; I just hit it at -5 to +1 on the dBVu meters. It can take a little of the edge off of too-bright-sounding stuff to allow the lead instrument or vocal stand out a little better.

 

Mostly I try to capture the sound I need while recording. Mic choice and placement and acoustics manipulation (gobos, changing where in the room you record, changing where you are pointing your sound) is your friend. But you have to get to know your 'friend' before you can expect to get results you can rely on.

[Folder]

 

What does "glue" mean? I have a rough idea of "tape" and "warm" but I have no idea of what something that's unglued sounds like.

 

It's kind of like the difference between film and video tape. Film is warm and mushy whereas video tape is sharp and crisp.

Sound gets "glued" together in an aural haze similar to the way 24 frames per second film had that warmth and graininess to it.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with frequency spectrums and instrument transients. Lot's of low mid frequencies and muffled transients can contribute to a warmer sound. This is what tape did naturally. Too much high end can sound harsh.

 

I pretty much use the PSP Vintage Warmer in some capacity on just about everything I record. The cool thing is you can dial in the amount you want. I start at zero on the mix buss then slowly bring it up until it 's audible. It really does fatten the sound and glue things together.

 

[MikeRivers]

I pretty much use the PSP Vintage Warmer in some capacity on just about everything I record. The cool thing is you can dial in the amount you want. I start at zero on the mix buss then slowly bring it up until it 's audible. It really does fatten the sound and glue things together.

 

Which brings up another point - Having established that everything needs to be warm and gluey, must everything also be fat and punchy? Seems like whenever I read a review of a microphone, a preamp, or even a signal processor (real or virtual) there's a statement about how it really "punches up" the source, or makes it "fat" or "phat."

 

Punch-drunk, obese, and mushy. That's how it's supposed to be?

 

[WRGKMC]

I have at least a dozen different types I use. I found some new ones only just recently that work very well. I use them for unique purposes, usually when finishing a mix and find I need some targeted tweaking which normal plugins just cant provide. They've saved my butt more then once and they can yield some wonderful results. In most cases they have to be finely tweaked to add just the right amount of color and gain. Overuse can be disastrous.

 

They are not something you just slap on a track and let it roll. You have to know how to use the tools well to add mild edges to the sound, Its not a broad brush, Its a fine one which can add thin lines to the edges. Knowing when and how much is the whole key to using them. The ones I use can even up the recorded gain staging. If one tracks is a little too tame compared to more aggressive sounding tracks, these can save you from retracking or reamping those parts with higher preamp gain. This is not the same as volume matching.

 

If you haven't tried this Musicrow Preamp plugin its well worth the free download. http://mcrow.net/product/preamp-vst-emulator/

I use it on bass tracks I've recorded direct. Bass can start to sag badly and loose punch using compression. Just gaining it up you can overdo the subs. This plugin can gain up, warm and smooth out the bass punch in a tube like manor and has plenty of solid gain. It adds some SVT type bass cab type punch. I use it to match the bass attack to the kick. Prior to this I was using EQ, Compression mostly, never quite getting that kick in the chest sound really good recordings had. This free plugin is fantastic for getting that when used mildly.

 

I've used this Shattered Glass Audio SGA1566 a couple of times on drums.http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/...-plugin-608574 It can tame some harsh upper mids and smooth the punch a little. Its bit tricky to use and I haven't quite nailed down its quirks. It doesn't like being pushed beyond a 1:1 gain and can get flakey. It worked good on some stuff and did little for some other tracks. I believe the transients/tempo, or track gain is a factor but seeing it worked really well on one recording I'll play with it some more instead of condemning it to the retired plugin bin.

 

Voxengo Voxformer is a killer plugin that has a couple of saturation controls. I haven't found anything that can do what it does for pumping up vocals and getting them up front in a rock tune. It does take some experience using this one because of its complexity. It does have an EQ, Gate, Dual band compression and DeEsser which are very good for getting vocals warm and strong. The presence and output saturation are the real magic however. When tweaked right you can target the kind of saturation you get pushing a strong signal on tape. http://www.voxengo.com/product/voxformer/.

 

I'm not a big user saturators for guitar tracks. I normally target what I need before I track them using various preamp/modelers or miced amps. There are those occasions where the track may have been too clean or just didn't have enough saturation to mix properly. In those cases I'll try using Voxengo Lampthruster. Its a combination of smooth gain and EQ. The Gain adds a Tube screamer like edge depending on how much you use. Its also got a mix knob so you can vary the percentage of wet/dry. This is a very mild drive plugin which is all I'd normally use to match the gain between two guitar parts. The built in EQ lets you push the saturation much like you'd push a guitar amp saturation and eliminates the need for a second EQ plugin so its low CPU consumption.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Which brings up another point - Having established that everything needs to be warm and gluey, must everything also be fat and punchy? Seems like whenever I read a review of a microphone, a preamp, or even a signal processor (real or virtual) there's a statement about how it really "punches up" the source, or makes it "fat" or "phat."

 

Punch-drunk, obese, and mushy. That's how it's supposed to be?

 

I can answer for myself. I don't know what others think of this.

 

My stuff is already pretty warm sounding because it's warm at the source, and I've got it going through transformers, tubes, and, if I wish, some harmonic distortion in the RNLA or whatever. Obviously, it depends on what you're recording (I'm usually recording rock, acoustic stuff, or experimental, and generally don't prefer "sterile" or blatantly digital sounds).

 

And I can't stand mushy.

 

But that said, some stuff that I record, I don't necessarily want really "pokey" transients because digital captures that in all its glory. So, for example, with drum overheads, I'll use slower sorts of overhead microphones, such as Heil dynamic mics, which respond slower to transient peaks than a typical condenser might. I might even compress the attack a little bit going in. Other people might use ribbon mics for this reason.

 

"Fat" and "punchy" are largely marketing terms, maybe review terms. I don't know.

 

To me, fattening up something might be introducing some harmonic distortion with a Neve transformer, which I do, or running it through some harmonic distortion with an FMR RNLA, which I also do (not all the time, obviously).

 

However, I DON'T want a microphone to do that. I want to choose when I do that. A mic preamp or maybe a signal processor? Sure, if I can control it.

 

Punchy? I don't know. If that means something can respond well to transients, I suppose that's pretty good. But I'm not sure what that is otherwise.

 

And warm and gluey....clearly not everything needs to be "warm and gluey". A lot of today's music is not "warm and gluey". But since we're discussing warmers and saturators in this thread, I suppose when we are using these things, we want our music more "warm and gluey".

[MikeRivers]

I'm not sure, but I think that "punchy" means that you can hear it clearly above all the other clatter of things that you should have recorded differently so they blend better. There's a tendency today to record each track so that it's super clear and, well, punchy, resulting in a lot of competition for space in the frequency spectrum. When you record the whole band together, you can hear this happening and fix it at the source. But when you record one track at a time, it takes a lot of expeience to imagine how to make individual pieces that fit together to give the desired effect when mixed.

 

So you don't really want everything to be punchy, at least not all the time, but it's tempting to record each individual track punchy, just in case you need it, I guess.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

There should be a knob on there for it. While tubes themselves don't cause hum, it's hard to build a tube-based device that's as hum-free as a solid state device. At least one tape simulator has hum, as well as wow and flutter, and I've seen a tone wheel organ simultor with a hum control.

 

One of the things I think helps people tell between a really good Leslie sim and the real thing is the fact that nearly all the sims out there lack the mechanical noises that are intrinsic to the real deal. Even if they get the Doppler shift right, and the tremolo on the low drum and the speed changes and interactions between rotor and drum nailed, without the noise of the spinning rotor and drum and the clunks of the solenoids switching and all the other grunts and groans of a physical Leslie, you're going to be able to tell the real thing from the simulation. Every single time.

 

I think a hum control on a tube or tube-based tape machine sim is a useful option. Same with controls for noise, tape hiss, wow and flutter, tape formulation, bias, etc. etc.