The Birth of Songs

[Mark L]

I had an interesting conversation with a guy at work today. He was asking me how I wrote songs and what inspired them

 

I gave him a few examples of how I came to write certain songs. A song I wrote called 'Osama Bin Laden's Dead' came to me whilst I was having a bath. Another one came while I was washing the pots after tea. Yet another entered my head when I was driving home from work

 

These songs just came to me. I wasn't trying to write anything. I wasn't even thinking about music. Weird

 

Other songs fall into my lap as I'm idly strumming the guitar or plonking on the bass. It's odd. It's like these songs already exist and I'm able to pick them out of the ether, either consciously or unconsciously

 

How about you chaps on here who write songs. Does any of the above sound familiar?

[AlamoJoe]

I had an interesting conversation with a guy at work today. He was asking me how I wrote songs and what inspired them

 

I gave him a few examples of how I came to write certain songs. A song I wrote called 'Osama Bin Laden's Dead' came to me whilst I was having a bath. Another one came while I was washing the pots after tea. Yet another entered my head when I was driving home from work

 

These songs just came to me. I wasn't trying to write anything. I wasn't even thinking about music. Weird

 

Other songs fall into my lap as I'm idly strumming the guitar or plonking on the bass. It's odd. It's like these songs already exist and I'm able to pick them out of the ether, either consciously or unconsciously

 

How about you chaps on here who write songs. Does any of the above sound familiar?

 

Bob Dylan in an interview when asked where all the songs he wrote early in his career came from and he said he didn't know. They just came from nowhere. That it was somewhat magical. But that they hadn't come to him like that since then.

 

For me it's always been lyrics first. Then I have to work like hell to find something to support them. It's much easier writing lyrics for other people's music.For me anyway. I'm not much of a musician.

[Anderton]

Does any of the above sound familiar?

 

Does it ever!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Often times I can't even remember how a song came into being. If I was a big star dude and someone from Rolling Stone was interviewing me and asked "How did you come up with the idea for [fill in the song title]?," most of the time my answer would be "I have no clue." I can sometimes remember the moment the germ of an idea occurred, but have no idea how it evolved. For example, "I Want My Heaven Now" happened because I was testing out one of my amp sims for SONAR and playing guitar. I liked a chord progression (which eventually became the intro), and recorded it. But I have no idea how the rest of it happened, or how it turned into a song. It's almost like amnesia, or a seizure happens.

 

What I have found is that it takes no effort to start writing a song. All I have to do is play, and make sure I know where to click on record. The work comes in finishing the song, and turning the placeholder lyrics into something decent.

 

Of course, getting Mark to sing harmonies doesn't hurt.

 

 

[Mark L]

 

Bob Dylan in an interview when asked where all the songs he wrote early in his career came from and he said he didn't know. They just came from nowhere. That it was somewhat magical. But that they hadn't come to him like that since then.

 

For me it's always been lyrics first. Then I have to work like hell to find something to support them. It's much easier writing lyrics for other people's music.For me anyway. I'm not much of a musician.

 

I like your stuff, matey. You sound like a good version of you, rather than a pale imitation of someone else

 

Any more of this 'I'm not much of a musician' nonsense and I'll come over there and spank you!

[Mark L]

 

Does it ever!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Often times I can't even remember how a song came into being. If I was a big star dude and someone from Rolling Stone was interviewing me and asked "How did you come up with the idea for [fill in the song title]?," most of the time my answer would be "I have no clue." I can sometimes remember the moment the germ of an idea occurred, but have no idea how it evolved. For example, "I Want My Heaven Now" happened because I was testing out one of my amp sims for SONAR and playing guitar. I liked a chord progression (which eventually became the intro), and recorded it. But I have no idea how the rest of it happened, or how it turned into a song. It's almost like amnesia, or a seizure happens.

 

What I have found is that it takes no effort to start writing a song. All I have to do is play, and make sure I know where to click on record. The work comes in finishing the song, and turning the placeholder lyrics into something decent.

 

Of course, getting Mark to sing harmonies doesn't hurt.

 

 

You're too kind, Sir

 

It's strange isn't it, this songwriting business? Macca famously 'wrote' Yesterday after it came to him in a dream. So that song already existed. But where? Was it in his head all the time? Was it in some bizarre dream-world, only accessible to certain people? It fascinates me

 

I was sitting on the couch watching TV and just picked up my acoustic out of habit. I played an A chord and then went down to a G. I just kept playing those two chords until it became hypnotic. To break out of the trance I went down to F, then back up to G, and then to A. Thus was Black Market Daydreams born. I grabbed a pen and paper and wrote some words, inspired by a friend who saw songs as colours. The rest of the song came fairly quickly. In fact the whole thing took about half an hour to write. The phrase 'black market daydreams' doesn't really scan too well when sung, but I couldn't let go of it. It's like it was clinging onto me like a sweaty tee-shirt. So I gave in and kept it

 

Speaking of 'placeholder' lyrics, I know for a fact that our dear friend, Ernest Buckley, takes a lot of time over the words to his songs. I tend to write down the first thing that pops into my head. I don't have the patience to slave over lyrics. How about you?

 

[kurdy]

Songwriting is hard. It seems to get harder as I get older. I wish I could relate more to those who say songs just "come to them". I've always been prone to overthinking, and songwriting is no exception.

 

The thing I struggle most with is melody. Not because I don't know what a good melody should sound like, but when I come up with one, I'm always afraid I've lifted it from somewhere else. I always wind up rearranging notes, changing the meter around, anything I can do to ensure not directly copying anything. The Paul McCartney "Yesterday" story...if that ever happened to me, I would've changed it 12 times, before it became the final product. I think I've become slightly paranoid, especially in these lawsuit-happy times. I'm aware no one is likely to come after me, because I'm a nobody, and my songs haven't made any money. But it's hard to comfort yourself with, "Hey, you've got nothing to worry about, as long as your songs are never successful." If someone ever pointed out that one of my songs sounds like X, I would want to disown the thing. I haven't experienced full-blown writers' block in like 20 years, and typically do manage to finish songs that I start. But it never comes without a considerable amount of stress. If I ever gets to the point where I can't write, it'll probably be because of that.

 

Lyrics are somewhat less stressful, because there are more words in existence than there are notes. Songwriters have even lifted whole lines of lyric, and never get in trouble. But a few notes that sound similar to something else (or more recently, just the beat), and suddenly you're a thief. Even so, with lyrics, I usually go for ideas that are a little more unique. I keep a file on my computer of "potential song titles", phrases that I've collected from books and things. Then whenever I need an idea, I just pull one out and take it from there. I like writing from titles, because they instantly suggest a direction. Typically, I'll start with the lyrics, then move on to the music.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I had an interesting conversation with a guy at work today. He was asking me how I wrote songs and what inspired them

 

I gave him a few examples of how I came to write certain songs. A song I wrote called 'Osama Bin Laden's Dead' came to me whilst I was having a bath. Another one came while I was washing the pots after tea. Yet another entered my head when I was driving home from work

 

These songs just came to me. I wasn't trying to write anything. I wasn't even thinking about music. Weird

 

Other songs fall into my lap as I'm idly strumming the guitar or plonking on the bass. It's odd. It's like these songs already exist and I'm able to pick them out of the ether, either consciously or unconsciously

 

How about you chaps on here who write songs. Does any of the above sound familiar?

 

Yeah, it does sound familiar. The part about it coming to you while having a bath, or washing the dishes kind of reminded me of the Nigel Tufnel interview in Guitar Player magazine years ago when he described how his best songs came to him after eating spicy curry and while he was stuck on the porcelain bus...

 

Seriously, I think the best songs tend to come to you when you're not "trying to write a song" - at least that's how it seems to work for me. If I get an idea that really revs me up, it's more inspiring than if I sit down and go through the mechanics of trying to write something.

[Anderton]

For me it's always been lyrics first. Then I have to work like hell to find something to support them. It's much easier writing lyrics for other people's music.For me anyway. I'm not much of a musician.

 

Well, you definitely have a musical sensibility, which is all that matters. Also, Walking on Air would be very adaptable to different genres...it could easily be given a club/mix treatment.

 

I do wish you'd mix your voice higher. Lately I've been mixing my voice higher and it really makes a difference...the song becomes much more approachable and human.

 

 

[Mark L]

Songwriting is hard. It seems to get harder as I get older. I wish I could relate more to those who say songs just "come to them". I've always been prone to overthinking, and songwriting is no exception.

 

The thing I struggle most with is melody. Not because I don't know what a good melody should sound like, but when I come up with one, I'm always afraid I've lifted it from somewhere else. I always wind up rearranging notes, changing the meter around, anything I can do to ensure not directly copying anything. The Paul McCartney "Yesterday" story...if that ever happened to me, I would've changed it 12 times, before it became the final product. I think I've become slightly paranoid, especially in these lawsuit-happy times. I'm aware no one is likely to come after me, because I'm a nobody, and my songs haven't made any money. But it's hard to comfort yourself with, "Hey, you've got nothing to worry about, as long as your songs are never successful." If someone ever pointed out that one of my songs sounds like X, I would want to disown the thing. I haven't experienced full-blown writers' block in like 20 years, and typically do manage to finish songs that I start. But it never comes without a considerable amount of stress. If I ever gets to the point where I can't write, it'll probably be because of that.

 

Lyrics are somewhat less stressful, because there are more words in existence than there are notes. Songwriters have even lifted whole lines of lyric, and never get in trouble. But a few notes that sound similar to something else (or more recently, just the beat), and suddenly you're a thief. Even so, with lyrics, I usually go for ideas that are a little more unique. I keep a file on my computer of "potential song titles", phrases that I've collected from books and things. Then whenever I need an idea, I just pull one out and take it from there. I like writing from titles, because they instantly suggest a direction. Typically, I'll start with the lyrics, then move on to the music.

 

Some good points there, kurdy

 

As more and more people write more and more songs, I suppose the available 'melody pool' is gradually shrinking. Which would therefore make songwriters more careful (and slightly more paranoid) about the tunes they're writing. Especially taking into account how eager folks are to sue each other these days

 

As to your overthinking and stress, all I can do is to mis-quote John Lennon - 'Songs are what happen to you when you're busy making other plans'. If I sit down and try to force myself to write a song, nothing happens. So I go and do something else. No big deal. I know a song will come along at some point

[Mark L]

 

Yeah, it does sound familiar. The part about it coming to you while having a bath, or washing the dishes kind of reminded me of the Nigel Tufnel interview in Guitar Player magazine years ago when he described how his best songs came to him after eating spicy curry and while he was stuck on the porcelain bus...

 

Seriously, I think the best songs tend to come to you when you're not "trying to write a song" - at least that's how it seems to work for me. If I get an idea that really revs me up, it's more inspiring than if I sit down and go through the mechanics of trying to write something.

 

Good old Nigel. A funny guy, yet he writes songs in the key of Dm - the saddest of all keys. What a contradiction

 

It's true what you say, Phil. The more effort one puts in, the less one seems to get out. I don't envy professional songwriters. Not sure I could handle that sort of pressure

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

For me it's always been lyrics first. Then I have to work like hell to find something to support them. It's much easier writing lyrics for other people's music.For me anyway. I'm not much of a musician.

 

I either have to do melody first, or do melody and lyrics simultaneously. The hardest approach for me is to try to write a melody to a pre-existing poem or something. The opposite (writing lyrics for a existing melody) is much easier.

[AlamoJoe]

 

Well, you definitely have a musical sensibility, which is all that matters. Also, Walking on Air would be very adaptable to different genres...it could easily be given a club/mix treatment.

 

I do wish you'd mix your voice higher. Lately I've been mixing my voice higher and it really makes a difference...the song becomes much more approachable and human.

 

 

Well thanks for the compliment Craig. Really didn't know if you'd ever heard any of my dreck. The problem is usually I've been the person mixing my voice and I do not like my voice.

As far as mixing it higher, that was part of the problem at the time as well. I was high mixing my voice. Hasn't been the case for some time I'm happy to report. But I've only recently become actively musically involved and the last couple of things I've been involved with, someone else has been mixing my voice.

I still don't like it.

[AlamoJoe]

 

I either have to do melody first, or do melody and lyrics simultaneously. The hardest approach for me is to try to write a melody to a pre-existing poem or something. The opposite (writing lyrics for a existing melody) is much easier.

 

Well generally, as I write lyrics, I hum a melody along with them. So I guess that's part of my process. I still like writing lyrics for other's stuff better.

[Ernest Buckley]

I wrote my first official/complete tune when I was 14… a very vivid memory for me. It was about homeless people that I saw everyday on my way to school in the city. The song was born out of my confusion and anger over seeing people living off the streets. To this day, the idea still boggles my mind… so most of my songwriting comes from some level of subconscious where I`m trying to figure things out. Most of my songs come from that subconscious level. At least the ones that mean something to me on an emotional level.

 

Then there are those songs that I deliberately sit down to write. These are the sort of songs I can write everyday but they don`t mean much to me and I normally don`t waste my time writing them.

 

At this juncture, I just write when theres a need to. Meaning… when a subject matter is churning in the subconscious… I`ve learned to recognize that feeling.

[Anderton]

 

Well thanks for the compliment Craig. Really didn't know if you'd ever heard any of my dreck. The problem is usually I've been the person mixing my voice and I do not like my voice.

 

NO ONE likes their voice. John Lennon didn't like his. Mark L doesn't like his. Vocalists are worse than Sophia Loren...she said in an interview once "I don't think I'm that good-looking, I really don't have a very good nose." Sophia Loren? Seriously?!? As if I ever noticed her nose

 

 

But here's the thing: The voice is the audio interface to the song. The job of an audio interface has nothing to do with "good-looking bits" or "warm-sounding bits," just bits. If people want to hear an amazing voice, they can go to the opera. I've never met many of the singers I've heard, but their voices tell me about them - not whether they had voice training or not.

 

I can tell a lot about people by hearing their voices. The voice, not an uberwanker guitar riff, is the most important part of a song. What you hear from the voice is someone's soul, which is why you're listening to their music.

 

I don't think I have a great voice by any means. But, I have an expressive one, and I mean it when I sing. People connect with that, and that's why I do music in the first place.

 

The only reason I started singing was because when I was in Mandrake, Randy the bass player was a much better singer. But he encouraged me to sing. I said "My voice isn't as good as yours." He said "Yeah, but it has a human quality that people will like." So I started singing, and I do believe I keep getting better at it...but my voice doesn't get better, my singing does.

 

[AlamoJoe]

Very good points Craig. While I knew about the way Lennon felt about his voice, and Mark for that matter, Really never thought much about the other excellent points you made. Changed my perspective a bit.

 

As far as Sophia...Those eyes and lips...Her nose could have been three feet long and she'd still have been on my list. Not to mention her other..Umm..Charms.

[Mark L]

I wrote my first official/complete tune when I was 14… a very vivid memory for me. It was about homeless people that I saw everyday on my way to school in the city. The song was born out of my confusion and anger over seeing people living off the streets. To this day, the idea still boggles my mind… so most of my songwriting comes from some level of subconscious where I`m trying to figure things out. Most of my songs come from that subconscious level. At least the ones that mean something to me on an emotional level.

 

Then there are those songs that I deliberately sit down to write. These are the sort of songs I can write everyday but they don`t mean much to me and I normally don`t waste my time writing them.

 

At this juncture, I just write when theres a need to. Meaning… when a subject matter is churning in the subconscious… I`ve learned to recognize that feeling.

 

It's interesting that you wrote your first song out of confusion and anger over something you were seeing every day. I think you have more in the way of empathy for your fellow man than I do

 

I tend to write more insular stuff. Most of my songs are about my state of mind, my confused spirituality, and my current sig-other. I occasionally step outside of my head and see what's happening in the real world. It's Alright to Cry and People on a Bus are examples of this

[Mark L]

 

But here's the thing: The voice is the audio interface to the song. The job of an audio interface has nothing to do with "good-looking bits" or "warm-sounding bits," just bits. If people want to hear an amazing voice, they can go to the opera. I've never met many of the singers I've heard, but their voices tell me about them - not whether they had voice training or not.

 

I can tell a lot about people by hearing their voices. The voice, not an uberwanker guitar riff, is the most important part of a song. What you hear from the voice is someone's soul, which is why you're listening to their music.

 

I don't think I have a great voice by any means. But, I have an expressive one, and I mean it when I sing. People connect with that, and that's why I do music in the first place.

 

The only reason I started singing was because when I was in Mandrake, Randy the bass player was a much better singer. But he encouraged me to sing. I said "My voice isn't as good as yours." He said "Yeah, but it has a human quality that people will like." So I started singing, and I do believe I keep getting better at it...but my voice doesn't get better, my singing does.

 

Interesting. Thinking about it, I like several vocalists whose voices couldn't exactly be described as angelic. Geddy Lee, for example. And Jimi Hendrix didn't have the best singing voice, but by God it was effective!

 

It seems that the best thing a singer can do is to accept the voice he (or she) has. The ones who have accepted that are the lucky ones. It's like the Sophia Loren thing for the rest of us. If she doesn't like her nose, there's nothing anyone can say to convince her otherwise. It's really flattering when people say they like my voice, but I just cringe when I hear it (my voice, not the flattery!)

 

 

 

 

[Anderton]

I thought the comments about singers justified its own thread.

[philboking]

I've had songs come to me in dreams. Sometimes they are so intense that I can't get the thing out of my head for a couple weeks; even if I listen to other stuff, as soon as it's quiet, it comes back. The only way to purge it is to write out the thing and record it.

 

Other times they spring from a groove, a melody, or often a unique chord progression I made up. For a while I was writing overly complex music, somewhat demanding of the listeners attention. Probably because of my prog rock background in the '70s. That stuff takes a lot of time and attention to get the parts of the arrangement to gel and work right. Generally I try to keep things relatively simple now, though people I perform with still comment on the unusual bridges, intros and breakdowns in some of my tunes. I feel it is important to serve the spirit of the song rather than constantly appear clever. Like Bryl-Creem; a little dab'll do ya.

 

My feeling about it is songs are out there in the metaphysical ether, and come through your perceptual filters colored a specific way by your experiences and present state of being.

 

If you're listening, you can pull that song out of it and work it into something good or great.

If not, it takes a much more powerful song to bully its way through your filters. These often turn out to be the best songs.

[Mark L]

I've had songs come to me in dreams. Sometimes they are so intense that I can't get the thing out of my head for a couple weeks; even if I listen to other stuff, as soon as it's quiet, it comes back. The only way to purge it is to write out the thing and record it.

 

Other times they spring from a groove, a melody, or often a unique chord progression I made up. For a while I was writing overly complex music, somewhat demanding of the listeners attention. Probably because of my prog rock background in the '70s. That stuff takes a lot of time and attention to get the parts of the arrangement to gel and work right. Generally I try to keep things relatively simple now, though people I perform with still comment on the unusual bridges, intros and breakdowns in some of my tunes. I feel it is important to serve the spirit of the song rather than constantly appear clever. Like Bryl-Creem; a little dab'll do ya.

 

My feeling about it is songs are out there in the metaphysical ether, and come through your perceptual filters colored a specific way by your experiences and present state of being.

 

If you're listening, you can pull that song out of it and work it into something good or great.

If not, it takes a much more powerful song to bully its way through your filters. These often turn out to be the best songs.

 

Yeah, I'm partial to a bit of prog myself. But I never tried to write complex stuff. Mine's always been simple. Minor sevenths are about as adventurous as I go, chord-wise

 

Seems we agree on the idea of songs already existing 'out there' somewhere. It's a bizarre thought, isn't it? But it just seems to make some sort of sense

 

 

[Mats Nermark]

There's something almost otherworldly when it come to writing tunes. Like some of you others here, the first kernel of a tune can come anytime and anywhere and be almost anything. A rhythm, a beat, a bass line a melody, etc. Then when I sit down to actually write the tune, it's like I step out of time as I normally see it and enter a bubble where nothing but the song exist. I remember an occasion many, many years ago, I was eating breakfast and got this first idea, and thought I should put that down on tape (yes, I said it was a long time ago). I did so but the tune kept me hooked so I stayed at it. Then all of a sudden I felt very strange. I looked at my watch and realized it was 8PM and I had not eaten anything all day and not done anything else either.

 

Nowdays with a family, those times are few but there's something very addictive about being "in the bubble". I know I will never be a great song writer nor a great musician, but I know that as long as I'm physically able, I will always write tunes and play my instruments. It's my addiction.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

[Mark L]

There's something almost otherworldly when it come to writing tunes. Like some of you others here, the first kernel of a tune can come anytime and anywhere and be almost anything. A rhythm, a beat, a bass line a melody, etc. Then when I sit down to actually write the tune, it's like I step out of time as I normally see it and enter a bubble where nothing but the song exist. I remember an occasion many, many years ago, I was eating breakfast and got this first idea, and thought I should put that down on tape (yes, I said it was a long time ago). I did so but the tune kept me hooked so I stayed at it. Then all of a sudden I felt very strange. I looked at my watch and realized it was 8PM and I had not eaten anything all day and not done anything else either.

 

Nowdays with a family, those times are few but there's something very addictive about being "in the bubble". I know I will never be a great song writer nor a great musician, but I know that as long as I'm physically able, I will always write tunes and play my instruments. It's my addiction.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

 

I know exactly what you mean when you say you enter 'a bubble'. I call it being in 'the zone'. And yes, while I'm in the zone time has no meaning. Food and drink is a distraction. I suspect that the house could burn down around me, and I wouldn't notice until the flames were licking up my legs!