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Does Anyone Here Think Vinyl Has a Future of Being More than Just a Niche Thing?


Anderton

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LOL. Of course not.

 

The archival merits cited in the April Fool's 2003 NPR story hold not just a certain charm but a certain truth -- the grooved record is a wonderful technology -- but ponder this:

 

We didn't have to wait for the second half of the 19th century to get the requisite technologies in place. A basic phonograph could have been constructed at almost any time in history by those willing to take the time to find the proper materials. And, while hand-spinning would soon become tiresome, available clock-type mechanisms go back many, many centuries. With a reasonably well-designed clock mechanism also in place, you'd then have a practical phonograph not different in principle from the wind-up portables that were still being sold into the 1950s and even into the '60s.

 

And who knows? Maybe it wouldn't have taken too long for one of Gutenberg's followers to transfer his book printing technology to some form of grooved reproduction.

 

[Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee ended up making a phonograph during his time in King Arthur's Court, along with, sadly, 'introducing' gunpowder-fueled weapons 'early' as well, a tragic-style plot device that ends up working for the time-traveling mine engineer. Or was it all a dream? Gotta read that one again, one of these days. wink.png ]

 

(And, of course, we old-timers probably all remember those very high end, high-precision wind-up clock-motor-driven Nagras.)

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I just don't see it taking over...or even gaining a significant market share.

 

It won't, of course.

 

But that it has grown in popularity speaks of how people sometimes just like to have something cool. Artwork, an LP that feels like a bit of an event to put on, something physical instead of streaming stuff or collecting MP3s on a HD.

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I just don't see it taking over...or even gaining a significant market share.

 

I agree.

 

A local classic rock station had a vinyl weekend a few weeks back where they played a lot of vinyl records.

 

While listening through out the weekend I was pretty consistent in being able to tell which songs were vinyl and which were from CD or (probably wav files from a hard drive) There seemed to be a lower mid range bump when the vinyl records were playing. But what surprised me was that I found myself mostly preferring the songs played from CD. Of course my car stereo over FM radio is not an optimal way to compare audio sources but I could definitely hear a difference and thought the CDs generally had more detail and clarity.

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It won't, of course.

 

But that it has grown in popularity speaks of how people sometimes just like to have something cool. Artwork, an LP that feels like a bit of an event to put on, something physical instead of streaming stuff or collecting MP3s on a HD.

 

 

It's definitely more about the experience and physicality than it is about audio quality or convenience. Great post Ken. :cool2:

 

 

IMHO, vinyl isn't going to be anything other than a niche thing. But it will be very important within that niche.

 

 

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It's a fad. I own vinyl' date=' but I know it's no better than a well mastered CD. [/quote']

 

Doesn't anyone remember badly recorded and mixed records from back when "mastering" was the first stage of replication, not the last stage of fixing problems during the recording proceses? There were some, you know. ;)

 

 

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LOL. Of course not.

 

The archival merits cited in the April Fool's 2003 NPR story hold not just a certain charm but a certain truth -- the grooved record is a wonderful technology -- but ponder this:

 

We didn't have to wait for the second half of the 19th century to get the requisite technologies in place. A basic phonograph could have been constructed at almost any time in history by those willing to take the time to find the proper materials.

 

The important part of this is in the future, not in the pasture. When there are no more CD players and no more semiconductor factories and we have to go out with clubs to get lunch instead of going to the club for lunch, it will still likely be possible to build a phonograph and play a record.

 

Try to find the short story by Gregory Benfield titled "Time Shards."

 

(And, of course, we old-timers probably all remember those very high end, high-precision wind-up clock-motor-driven Nagras.)

 

Was there a spring-wound Nagra? I remember a portable spring wound recorder from the mid 1950s. There was what looked like a kiddie steering wheel (but metal, of course) that you used to wind it up. I didn't Nagra made one, but there was the Amplimite.

 

AmplicorpMagnemite09a.jpg

 

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I don't see it taking over.

 

LPs and all digital reproductions give different kinds of distortion.

 

Although I like Stan Getz's saxophone tone on Vinyl better than CD, I play CD. Why? I can hear the music better without the distraction of surface noise.

 

I think the majority of people want to hear the music and don't care that much about the quality as long as it's adequate. The mp3 market shows us that. Before that cassette tapes, 8 tracks, and 45 rpm records.

 

But I do miss the physical experience a little myself. The big sleeve (that didn't break at the hinge like the jewel case), the art work, the liner notes, and watching the record go around while lowering the needle on the outside edge. But after saying all that, the last time I played each record, was when I made a digital recording of it.

 

For those who love it, enjoy it!

 

Insights and incites by Notes

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I agree.

 

A local classic rock station had a vinyl weekend a few weeks back where they played a lot of vinyl records.

 

While listening through out the weekend I was pretty consistent in being able to tell which songs were vinyl and which were from CD or (probably wav files from a hard drive) There seemed to be a lower mid range bump when the vinyl records were playing. But what surprised me was that I found myself mostly preferring the songs played from CD. Of course my car stereo over FM radio is not an optimal way to compare audio sources but I could definitely hear a difference and thought the CDs generally had more detail and clarity.

 

Having 1200 LPs, a couple hundred singles and 78s, 500+ CDs, and listening to 320 kbps streams most of the time these days, I would say that your appraisal sounds about right. I don't find vinyl unpleasant -- and the best rigs (not mine but a buddy has sunk serious new car money in his stereo, which is probably why he's a retired corporate lawyer who drives an old car [and jet sets around, do not feel too for him, he just went through his nice car phase when he was a young corpo lawyer]) deliver a relative transparency that brings their sound much closer to that of properly done digital transcription -- but, yeah, there is a sound. The typical low mid bump you mention, the wear/dust noises, of course, but also just the sound of the needle in a groove. (Recall to yourself the sound of the needle in a blank/lead-in groove, even in the best rigs, the sound of 'silence' is different after that needle drop. It's a sound burned into my memory, like trainriders get with the rail sound.)

 

But it was a great technology. Let's hope we don't have to revert to it in the future -- but if there was a general collapse that crumpled the tech/power grid, at least recorded sound could be one of the first things we could get back on line. So to speak.

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Doesn't anyone remember badly recorded and mixed records from back when "mastering" was the first stage of replication, not the last stage of fixing problems during the recording proceses? There were some, you know. wink.png

 

 

Oh, hell, yeah. I hear it all the time. I may listen via high tech streaming, but a substantial part of what I listen to is old music, pretty much everything from the late 20s forward. (Thank you vacuum tube inventors!)

 

Was there a spring-wound Nagra? I remember a portable spring wound recorder from the mid 1950s. There was what looked like a kiddie steering wheel (but metal, of course) that you used to wind it up. I didn't Nagra made one, but there was the Amplimite.
Yeah, I remember seeing it in the gear directories from the early 60s. As I recall it was a staggering 1900 dollars or so. New full size car money in that era. The clock motor, of course, was an extremely high precision thing -- from Thorens! Of course the electronics used batteries; faintly remember them as being rechargeable or having that option. The concept was that it was easier to deliver extreme high precision speed using a spring driven clock mechanism -- but this may have had something to do with the limited power available by battery. I suspect, portable or not, the thing had a relatively heavy flywheel.

 

NagraRecorderWithClockWorkMotor.jpg

 

Did a little research... the Nagra portable recorders with clockwork motor transports date to 1951...

 

http://www.filmsoundsweden.se/backspegel/kudelski.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagra

 

Speaking of Thorens (who gained fame with cigarette lighters, among other things!) here's a view of their 1932 "Excelda" portable phono [360 degree viewer requires flash] http://sounds.bl.uk/Sound-recording-...OWX1988-0007V0

 

Here's a still (sans record -- my guess is the unit is about 6 inches across -- the viewer above shows what I imagine to be a 10" 78 on one):

 

A0866_ex.jpg

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It's definitely more about the experience and physicality than it is about audio quality or convenience. Great post Ken. :cool2:

 

 

IMHO, vinyl isn't going to be anything other than a niche thing. But it will be very important within that niche.

 

 

Thanks.

 

Yes, it will be a niche thing, but an important thing within that. In the Los Angeles area, I love how all these record stores have sprouted up, how college radio stations are still spinning vinyl, and how people who purchase vinyl value it. It's special to them, and it feels special to them. You see when we get together, how when someone takes out a record and plays it, the cover is passed around or people look at it or ask about it vs. when someone is streaming Spotify.

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My son just received in the mail the item below:

 

 

fetch?id=31557005

 

 

Special colored 'splatter' vinyl limited edition of our second LP 'Anchor' with hand silk-screened cover

 

$20 from the website. Hand-signed, numbered by the artist (Nick Zammuto from The Books)

 

The paper quality and images are very high quality. Quite an impressive artifact, beats any album cover from the 60s/70s with it's hand-made heft and detail and all round object-de-artness.

 

I see this kind of thing as the coffee-table book version of a physical music medium.

 

And I'm a huge lover of coffee table books - photographs and photo-essays, art and art history, all that sort of thing. So I'm impressed - yes, a niche, and a very cool one at that in my estimation.

 

nat whilk ii

 

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Thanks to the link to the Nagra history. I guess they were first with a wind-up tape recorder. The first Nagra I remember seeing and using is the III. Between the Smithsonian and the Library of Congress, there was always one available to borrow when I wanted to do some field recording.

 

Sure enough, where there's an Internet, there's a picture. Note the crank and the built-in microphone.

 

1_Nagra-1.jpg

The Nagra I

 

 

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Doesn't anyone remember badly recorded and mixed records from back when "mastering" was the first stage of replication, not the last stage of fixing problems during the recording proceses? There were some, you know. ;)

 

 

Great point Mike - it's funny that with the passing of time, people tend to remember the good things - the really cool album releases being one example - while overlooking and forgetting about all the dreck that was also released at about the same time. Not just other hits that weren't as good as the legendary stuff; all of that is dwarfed by the sheer number of releases that never came up on anyone's radar and that no one knows about or remembers... mainly because the vast majority of it wasn't any good.

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I keep thinking that someone will find a laser type technology that can read the grooves' date=' eliminating wear on the vinyl. Won't make records any lighter when it comes time to move.[/quote']

 

It already exists. Order yours today, starting at only $9,000 (for you, $8995), wood side panels optional.

http://elpj.com/ltfeaturesandspecs/

 

An alternative system is one that's camera based and costs even more. The Library of Congress has one. Its value (to them) is that it's good for playing lacquer disks where the lacquer is peeling off. The camera moves around the record and takes pictures of the grooves, which are then processed to produce audio. The record doesn't spin so there's less risk of a piece of lacquer flying off when played on a turntable, even with a laser.

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I could see vinyl becoming more than a niche when everything else becomes a niche. What I mean by that is it’s not like say 10 years ago when we were comparing vinyl sales to CD while at the same time looking forward to DVD-A and SACD to replace CD and bury vinyl even further. That didn’t happen and CD sales continue to decline. There are more factions among consumers when it comes to music delivery. Even cassettes are still being sold, albeit an infinitesimal percentage.

 

But just for grins let’s imagine vinyl makes a big comeback. It still won’t be the vinyl it was because so many people are using USB turntables, which are not real turntables at all. That is, the way we listened to vinyl in the past (and as I still do) through a pure analog chain is not going to come back among the masses. It will be there but only a niche of a niche.

 

So while Nielsen is telling us vinyl sales are increasing every year, most people will never hear vinyl like we (me) baby boomers heard vinyl. Buying a vinyl record and playing it on a turntable via USB or firewire is about the same as buying a vinyl record just to say you have it and never actually listening to it. Same with radio stations that play vinyl; it’s all

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It won't, of course.

 

But that it has grown in popularity speaks of how people sometimes just like to have something cool. Artwork, an LP that feels like a bit of an event to put on, something physical instead of streaming stuff or collecting MP3s on a HD.

 

I agree.

 

I don`t see vinyl making a huge comeback but I think kids who are "initiated" in the process of going to a record store, purchasing some vinyl, going home, unwrapping it, reading the liner notes, putting the record on, etc… are experiencing something so much more awarding and memorable than downloading or streaming something. I am seeing this with my friends kids who are in their teens and with my own kids. We are introducing our kids to the idea of listening to a record from start to finish, the idea of a band developing their sound over years and years.

 

My son went to see Rush with me in June and really enjoys listening to their classic records… Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures, Hemispheres, etc… and he wants to know why songs are being extended from one album to another and he wants to listen to those ideas develop. For me, this is part of culturing my kids. They need to be introduced to art, they need to understand the work and why it is important. Obviously it helps that my kids love music but I think their love for music also comes from the fact that I have subjected them to music since they were in the womb. Art is important to me and I want to pass that beautiful gift down to them.

 

So yeah, I don`t see vinyl taking over the world but I definitely see it making a come back for kids who are growing up with more appreciation of the arts.

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Or even if they are not concept albums, experiencing a cool collection of songs that has a flow from one song to the next instead of a random jumble of songs. I think a lot of electronica has had this sort of flow, fortunately, but maybe not so much pop, rock, or other genres as of late.

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Or even if they are not concept albums' date=' experiencing a cool collection of songs that has a flow from one song to the next instead of a random jumble of songs. I think a lot of electronica has had this sort of flow, fortunately[/quote']

 

And of course, that's what DJs are all about. The way really good ones glue together a set can be a thing of beauty.

 

 

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Nope. It's all just nostalgia. I still have my LPs and 45s and 12"s from the '80s when I was a teenager and I like playing them every once in a while, but I'll never buy any current music on vinyl.

 

Eventually the generations that have nostalgic feelings towards vinyl will die out. That's just a fact of life.

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