Challenge to Tube Amp makers

[Kiwiburger]

This thread is to continue a discussion started in another in-appropriate thread.

 

The basic premise: tubes are still very much loved and are important to musicians. However, the designs are stuck back in the past and we need some serious new designs to give us appropriate musical tools for the digital age.

 

Why conventional tube amps suck:

 

1 - they are TOO LOUD. Even 5 watts is TOO LOUD for apartment dwelling home recordists or for safe practice levels.

 

2 - they HUM too much. I was appalled to learn that many tube amps have the filaments heated by AC!! That's outrageous! They should all be heated with filtered DC as a matter of course.

 

3 - we need STEREO. Come one - practically every other guitar processor or effect is stereo now.

 

4 - AC power quality isn't what it used to be. Come on - give us rubber mounted torroidal transformers that don't hum or buzz!

 

5 - We have tools and materials and technology that weren't available in the 1950's. Let's see some new millenium designs that will thrill us jaded digital musicians.

 

Time to light some fires!

[Jeff da Weasel]

What you're asking for is really expensive. It's easily doable, as long as you can pay the price.

 

The problem is that unless a large enough portion of the market supports something, even if it's a good idea, it's not feasible for us in the manufacturing world to make it, since the numbers won't be high enough to justify setting up the tooling and manufacturing.

 

So, it'd be something that would come from a boutique shop, and be in the thousands of dollars for a 5W amp.

 

If you were a businessman and ran the sales projections, would you be anxious to build the amp you describe?

 

- Jeff

[Kiwiburger]

OK - I guess you represent the establishment.

 

I go to my favorite music shops.

They are full of expensive tube amps.

I love tube tone.

I have the money to buy whatever I want.

I take these tube amps home - and guess what:

 

They are TOO FREAKIN LOUD and they HUM TOO MUCH.

 

I am finding that many people all over the world are forced into:

 

Avoiding tube amps, and spending just as much money (or more) on crap solid state or digital systems - just to get the control over volume and get the hum levels down. Tube makers lose.

 

Or - simple, but dangerous, DIY modifications that seem to fix these little amps. That's crazy that people are forced into it.

 

This isn't a crisis of economics. It's a crisis of too much {censored} in some peoples head.

[Kiwiburger]

If Guitar Player magazines are good for anything, they prove two basics laws:

 

Every guitar player wants a tube amp. Or two or three.

 

But - for obvious reasons - every guitar player has to settle for a Pod.

 

That's about it, as far as I can see.

 

Are you saying there is no money to be made here? I doubt that very much.

 

Guitarists might look stupid, but they aren't. They aren't really fooled by digital fakeness. They aren't really fooled by low voltage tubes lit up with LEDs. Most of them DO know tone when it bites them on the arse.

 

Just can't buy it for love or money ...

[amplayer]

 

Originally posted by Kiwiburger Why conventional tube amps suck: 1 - they are TOO LOUD. Even 5 watts is TOO LOUD for apartment dwelling home recordists or for safe practice levels.

 

 

I don't agree with the premise that tube amps are too loud. Certainly, to get power amp distortion, you need to turn up loud. However, it's not necessary to distort the power amp to get a great sound. A good preamp design should be able to give you the sound you need.

 

So, to you amp builders out there, please just give us tube amps with a good enough preamp stage so that we needn't turn to 11 to get a desirable tone.

Having said that, my limited experience with the Chinese made $399 Peavey Valveking in Class A mode made me think there is actually innovation still happening with tube amps.

[Jeff da Weasel]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger OK - I guess you represent the establishment.

 

Yup, that's me!

 

Or - simple, but dangerous, DIY modifications that seem to fix these little amps. That's crazy that people are forced into it.

 

How is a power brake (or other attenuator) dangerous?

 

One of my clients, Groove Tubes, makes some sweet Class-A and other types of tube amps. The main complaint is that they're not LOUD enough to play over a bashing rock drummer. Even at 50W.

 

Let me ask you the typical marketing question: how much would you pay for the amp you describe (very low noise, low wattage, stereo, very high quality transformers)?

 

Give me a dollar figure and I'll tell you if any manufacturer would be able to build it.

 

- Jeff

[Kiwiburger]

I never mentioned power brakes - but now that you mention it, the very idea is ridiculous.

 

Do car makers make cars that can ONLY run at 100 MPH. So if you just want to drive the car to the shops, you have to drive with the handbrake on and slip the clutch all the way?

 

I appreciate that drums are freaking loud too. There is a need to compete with drums - I agree. But tone is tone, and volume is volume. If you can get tone at low volume, all you need is a mic or a DI output to the PA. That way, everyone can hear, and everyones hearing is preserved, so everyone can hear for much longer.

 

Do hifi listeners tolerate hum? No they don't - that's why you CANT BUY A HIFI AMP WITH BAD HUM.

 

Do guitar players tolerate hum? Apparantly so (but I think this is because they don't have any freaking choice).

 

Will a humming guitar amp get you a recording gig? I doubt it.

 

I suppose what you are really saying is that the guitar and amp industry is a mugs game that takes money from babies who will never actually make a serious record in their life. Probably true.

 

I guess the real serious musicians have to engineer their own solutions - meanwhile Fender and Marshal and Peavy etc get all the street cred. Sounds like real life as I've come to know it.

 

How much would I pay? Well, converting from kiwi to USA dollars - i've probably spent $10,000 on other solutions so far, and still not satisfied. I'd easily pay $2000 per channel for a class A 5watt amp HEAD (i'll chose my speakers thanks) that was hum free.

[Jeff da Weasel]

 

Originally posted by Kiwiburger I'd easily pay $2000 per channel for a class A 5watt amp HEAD (i'll chose my speakers thanks) that was hum free.

 

 

So, around $4000 USD, right, for this stereo, 5W, hum-free amp head?

 

I would have to say that you, while your intentions are excellent, would be in a small minority of purchasers.

 

That's why it's just not a sound business decision for a manufacturer. While we're all in this business because we love gear and love music, at the end of the day the stuff has to be saleable and profitable, or else there's no way to keep the doors open and the lights on.

 

Have you looked into some low-wattage solutions from some of the fine boutique manufacturers out there? It seems to me that someone would be willing to custom-make you just the amp you're looking for, and would be willing to do so for the kind of money you're talking about.

 

- Jeff

[Kiwiburger]

This is inspiring me to design my own amp, because a quick Google around gives you all the information you need.

 

I said dangerous before, because it seems that a beginner who has never soldered before has to start modifying a high voltage tube amp (that could actually kill you even unplugged).

 

Not that i'm a beginner. I'll do my own thing, but I think it's a crying shame that the established tube amp industry is so crap - and knows they are so crap and doesn't care.

[Lee Flier]

Well, I'm one of those tube amp snobs in a big way. And I think a lot of the reason we put up with some of the crap we do is because we don't really see any other way around it that will still maintain the tone we want. Amps don't generally hum of their own accord; they hum because the guitar is connected to it via a low Z unbalanced connection, and modifying a guitar for low Z would severely impact the tone to say the least. And POD's hum worse than amps if you plug a guitar with single coil pickups into them. But sorry, I love my single coil pickups and you can pry them from my cold dead fingers. So, I'll put up with the hum.

 

"Tube amps are too loud" is another over-generalized statement. I mean... too loud for what? Amps, like PA equipment or any audio equipment, are sized differently and designed differently for different sized venues. That so many people decide to buy a full Marshall stack to play at the local pub because they've seen their heroes on MTV playing a full stack, isn't Marshall's fault. And nowadays there are a LOT of cool low wattage tube amps that are not at all too loud for small clubs. There aren't too many low enough to play in apartments but there are a few... Emery makes a wonderful 2 watt amp for about $2K that you might want to try, and they might even have a 1 watt now. There's also stuff like the THD Univalve which doesn't even have a speaker and you can record direct with it. A lot of amps also give you more control over the preamp and plate voltage than in the past, which allows you to emulate several bigger tube amps in one small one. The Univalve allows you to swap out different tubes to get different sounds... etc.

 

So, I'm not sure what you're on about. There've been a lot of great innovations in tube amps the past few years, and some of the other issues you mention like hum are limitations inherent in guitar electronics design, which most people are loathe to mess with because it changes the tone too much. You can't really compare it to hi fi equipment because with hi fi gear the object is to eliminate distortion, whereas electric guitar players like the distortion.

[Kiwiburger]

Jeff - I think you are right. Actually, I don't mind that I end up with a superb guitar amp that nobody else can have.

 

We have a well respected tube amp maker in NZ (previously known as Stephen Delft) but you are right, this is a hand built boutique market and you have to wait in line.

 

As for mass manufactured stuff, I think after the basic design, construction and materials is fairly cheap. Everything is done in Chinese sweatshops these days.

 

I have a few secrets up my sleeve that I am using at the moment (solid state) but I haven't ventured into tube design yet.

 

The sort of thing I would be thinking is a special steel chassis that provides ultimate shielding between power supply and audio chain. Nothing but pure DC.

 

For the sake of a few extra components and bigger capacitors, i'm really amazed that the state of the industry is so crap.

 

[Kiwiburger]

Noise from the guitar pickups and cables are a seperate issue.

 

I could rant on about how crap cables and pickups are. You should hear the tribolectric noise on my Planet Waves cable! It was supposed to be good, and was bloody expensive enough.

 

As much as I don't appreciate some loss of tone, I think i'll be running with EMG pickups. At least they are trying.

 

But i'm talking about basic hum from the amp. Acoustic transformer noise, and electrical self noise hum with nothing plugged in. Of course I want the distortion, and I can tolerate some hiss.

 

But AC power straight to the filaments .. un frikken believable!

 

The reason POD's cause hum in single coils is because of the unshielded AC to AC power adapter.

[Kiwiburger]

I like the THD Univalve, but it's still extremely loud in my studio. At least it comes with a power brake installed.

 

I haven't trialled one since I solved my AC power problems, but I seem to recall it hummed badly, and i'm not sure I would find it much different now.

 

I just shut up know, knowing that most people don't give a crap and i'm not going to be able to buy what I want anytime soon.

 

Zvex stuff is very interesting to me, but just seem a bit on the small side. But I agree entirely with the sentiments behind their design.

[Phil O'Keefe]

A few observations:

 

As I said over on my forum, converting the tube heaters to DC power is quite simple, and a good tech should be able to do it for you for about $50 in labor and about $10 in parts. Or if you know what you're doing (even unplugged, the caps in an amp can hold enough charge to give you a serious zap...) you can DIY in a half an hour to an hour.

 

Guitarists are not stupid, but they are surprisingly "traditional" and slow to accept new products and new concepts. Don't believe me? Then please explain why the Tele, Strat and Les Paul (and clones / similarly shaped guitars) still remain so popular after being on the market for 50 years... and why so many "reissue" guitars and amps fly off the store shelves.

 

Want stereo? Sure... I love stereo guitar. But it's easier for a company to market a mono guitar amp, and let the people who want 'stereo" buy two... it increases the potential market for the product, because not EVERY guitarist wants a stereo rig. It's also easier to move two mono amps than a heavy stereo tube amp with twice the amp and twice the speakers in it.

 

While many guitarists want a low wattage, high featured, great sounding tube amp for home and practice use, many others prefer something they can 'gig with". And for many folks, that means 50 - 100 WRMS. Most people are not playing through nice PA systems... many of the club and band owned systems I see can barely keep up with the vocals, and I for one wouldn't feel comfortable with some of the systems handling MY guitar via a mic.

 

We won't get into the fact that many / most bands in clubs just play with the stage volume too dang loud for the sound tech to have much influence on the sound in the room anyway.

 

However, there ARE several boutique amp builders who are jumping into low wattage products of that nature. I'll get you some links if you'd like.

 

Lee's comments about guitar amps and noise being largely due to the high impedance guitar being plugged in are dead on. Try it sometime. Turn your amp on and dime everything, but don't plug in. Then try it after you have your guitar plugged in. You'll frequently hear a huge difference.

 

Companys generally make what people are willing to buy. If there is a demand, they will build it. Of course, you can always design / spec your own and have a good tech build you a custom amp to your preferences if you're willing to spend the scratch on that approach. Or you can build your own... stay tuned for more info an option you might want to consider if you know how to solder. Yes, that's a upcoming Pro Review teaser.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger I like the THD Univalve, but it's still extremely loud in my studio. At least it comes with a power brake installed. I love my Univalve. If you want it quieter, go with a different tube... a 6V6, with the "Low Power" switch engaged shouldn't put out more than about 4 WRMS or so. Heck, a 6550 only gives you about 15 watts, and that's as much as you can get out of a Univalve. I haven't trialled one since I solved my AC power problems, but I seem to recall it hummed badly, and i'm not sure I would find it much different now. Check again now that your AC issues have been addressed and let me know. Mine is pretty quiet, although that is dependent on the tubes I use, the and the guitar - shield the amp all you want and plug in a guitar cable and a single coil equipped axe and you'll STILL get noise... but mine is quiet enough that I normally don't bother with the nifty little lightbulb based NR circuit in it - I generally prefer the tone with that bypassed. I just shut up know, knowing that most people don't give a crap and i'm not going to be able to buy what I want anytime soon. Not at all Kiwi... feel free to express yourself. Besides, you might be amazed by how many people read this forum, and their positions in the industry. Maybe someone will take a few of your suggestions to heart - you never know.

[Kiwiburger]

Thanks Phil. You are the voice of reason, as usual.

 

Converting the tube heaters to DC power is quite simple, and a good tech should be able to do it for you for about $50 in labor and about $10 in parts. Or if you know what you're doing (even unplugged, the caps in an amp can hold enough charge to give you a serious zap...) you can DIY in a half an hour to an hour.

It would be far cheapier, easier and safer if this was done by the maker as standard.

Guitarists are not stupid, but they are surprisingly "traditional" and slow to accept new products and new concepts. Don't believe me? Then please explain why the Tele, Strat and Les Paul (and clones / similarly shaped guitars) still remain so popular after being on the market for 50 years... and why so many "reissue" guitars and amps fly off the store shelves.

Well a big reason is that standard guitar are so crap that you have to replace all the parts. It's a lot easier to choose a standard design, so you know you can buy the replacement parts and they will fit.

Want stereo? Sure... I love stereo guitar. But it's easier for a company to market a mono guitar amp, and let the people who want 'stereo" buy two... it increases the potential market for the product, because not EVERY guitarist wants a stereo rig. It's also easier to move two mono amps than a heavy stereo tube amp with twice the amp and twice the speakers in it.

Agreed. With current thinking, it would appear to be that way. I reckon I can make a small stereo tube amp not much bigger than a small mono tube amp ... it will keep the power supply and case construction simpler than building two. I mean a HEAD, I actually hate combos. For several reasons. But imagine a stereo head that could connect to your choice of stereo 4x12, or seperated 12" cabs, or whatever you want.

While many guitarists want a low wattage, high featured, great sounding tube amp for home and practice use, many others prefer something they can 'gig with". And for many folks, that means 50 - 100 WRMS. Most people are not playing through nice PA systems... many of the club and band owned systems I see can barely keep up with the vocals, and I for one wouldn't feel comfortable with some of the systems handling MY guitar via a mic. We won't get into the fact that many / most bands in clubs just play with the stage volume too dang loud for the sound tech to have much influence on the sound in the room anyway.

Yep - bedroom practice, studio recording, and deafening punters are 3 seperate issues. I'm interested in tone, rather than volume. But a controlable guitar amp would be nice. Why do you think PODs are so popular? It's not because they sound good - it's because they are controlable at low volume, you can practice, and they even seem to be useful in the studio because your average guitar amp is too crap.

However, there ARE several boutique amp builders who are jumping into low wattage products of that nature. I'll get you some links if you'd like.

I've found quite a few. I'm at a disadvantage with our 240V 50Hz and the tyranny of distance.

Lee's comments about guitar amps and noise being largely due to the high impedance guitar being plugged in are dead on. Try it sometime. Turn your amp on and dime everything, but don't plug in. Then try it after you have your guitar plugged in. You'll frequently hear a huge difference.

Yep. EMG pickups are low-z. Gotta love em. I actually prefer the tone of some other pickups, but I can eliminate the hum, so it's got to be EMG. Or a Faraday Cage - but i'm resisting that.

 

Companys generally make what people are willing to buy. If there is a demand, they will build it.

Companies are people, and people are lazy. MacDonalds could sell good food, but they won't because it's easier to sell crap. And the punters willingly eat the stuff. Go figure.

 

Of course, you can always design / spec your own and have a good tech build you a custom amp to your preferences if you're willing to spend the scratch on that approach. Or you can build your own... stay tuned for more info an option you might want to consider if you know how to solder. Yes, that's a upcoming Pro Review teaser.

 

I'll be there ...

[Phil O'Keefe]

Yes, it would be better if all tube amps used DC heater supplies... but that costs a few bucks extra in parts and labor, and most people don't demand it, so companies don't bother. Again, as to safety, it's quite safe to do IF you know what you're doing... and if not, it's a job best left to a good tech.

 

As to a stereo head and the power supply, your biggest weight items in an amp (after the case and the cabinetry) is the power and output transformers... and in order to go stereo, you'll definitely need bigger (and thus heavier) trannys. That will add weight, but I admit, not as much as a second / seperate case and cabinet.

 

As far as guitars being "crap", I respectfully disagree. I don't have a clue as to how old YOU are, but when I was a kid and first starting out, most beginner guitars WERE crap... with a few exceptions. Nowdays, even many of the inexpensive guitars are pretty darned good by comparison... and there are higher end models (if you're willing to pay for them) that are indeed very, very good... and of course, plenty of companies will "custom shop" something to your specs.

 

But your point about replacement parts is noted and agreed with.

[Mr. Donovan]

Hey Kiwiburger, have you ever heard that the same Chinese word for crisis also means opporunity (or something like that). I'm in an electronics program at a community college right now, although I'm about to leave school for a while and spend some time in a Zen Monastery. If I go back to studying electronics after my time in the Monastery, I'll definately look into tube amp design.

[MrKnobs]

Just spend a little more for a really well-designed and built tube amp and these problems are resolved.

 

I recommend www.badcatamps.com

 

Choose something low powered so you can get the tone at a reasonable level.

 

Your mileage may vary, but THIS is the sound I'm looking for and no modeling box I've tried delivers it.

 

No modeler sounds like a real tube amp miked up. Not that there's anything wrong with the way modelers sound, if you like it. It's just different.

 

Terry D.

 

 

[Kiwiburger]

Bad Cats look nice. But why is it that 5W models from most makers lack the tone controls and features of the huge one?

 

For some reason, it's assumed that anyone wanting a low watt amp must only want it for practice, and isn't serious about tone.

 

I'll give the Univalve another try before building my own I think.

[AJ6stringsting]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger This thread is to continue a discussion started in another in-appropriate thread. The basic premise: tubes are still very much loved and are important to musicians. However, the designs are stuck back in the past and we need some serious new designs to give us appropriate musical tools for the digital age. Why conventional tube amps suck: 1 - they are TOO LOUD. Even 5 watts is TOO LOUD for apartment dwelling home recordists or for safe practice levels. 2 - they HUM too much. I was appalled to learn that many tube amps have the filaments heated by AC!! That's outrageous! They should all be heated with filtered DC as a matter of course. 3 - we need STEREO. Come one - practically every other guitar processor or effect is stereo now. 4 - AC power quality isn't what it used to be. Come on - give us rubber mounted torroidal transformers that don't hum or buzz! 5 - We have tools and materials and technology that weren't available in the 1950's. Let's see some new millenium designs that will thrill us jaded digital musicians. Time to light some fires!

allah luyah dude, some one had to say it.

[franknputer]

FYI, there is this: http://zvexamps.com/amp_view.html

 

Haven't tried it myself, but the sound samples are pretty cool. And if 1/2 watt is too loud, maybe you need another hobby.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger Every guitar player wants a tube amp. Or two or three.

 

I like Polytones

 

guess I'm out of the club

 

[Kiwiburger]

Polytone make both tube and solid state amps. I use solid state amps, because I can't find a freakin tube amp that doesn't hum.

 

There are so many factors in guitar amp design - and also in guitar speaker cab desing. Personally, I don't think the two issues should be confused together - which is why i prefer heads over combos.

 

All other factors being equal - i think most people would prefer a tube amp sound if it was available.

[aerorockjax]

 

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe A few observations: As I said over on my forum, converting the tube heaters to DC power is quite simple, and a good tech should be able to do it for you for about $50 in labor and about $10 in parts. Or if you know what you're doing (even unplugged, the caps in an amp can hold enough charge to give you a serious zap...) you can DIY in a half an hour to an hour.

 

 

Very interesting. I bet any amp manufacturers that are gonna make amps with dc power stock won't want this info to get out otherwise they won't be able to charge an enormous amount extra. Is there any down side to having this mod done? Sounds like a great mod especially for tube amps used for recording.

 

As far as noise coming from guitar, I have heard people converting to balanced connections helps allot and allows much longer cables without any additional noise or tone degradation. With single coils, sheilding the cavities and pickguard, better grounding of the wiring, upgrading the pots, wiring, switch and jack if done right can have a significant effect on reducing noise but won't eliminate it. Plus as we all know there are good noiseless single coils sized buckers that can get close to true single coil tone with zero noise.