Members Not Serial Posted January 26, 2006 Members Share Posted January 26, 2006 i am the recording supervisor at a local university. of the many problems i encountered coming into this situation, a few still remain. my number one issue with the students is with the piano, and how to mic it on stage specifically in a big band jazz show. we are RECORDING the show, and are not doing FOH. that job is another team entirely. sometimes we split the signal for certain mics, other times we do not and run independant mics. these kids are not experts but they are not numbskulls either. some show real promise while the nimrods all quit when i came on board. the problem with the piano technique is this: when i came on board, the students were adamant about using a pair of shure 98's in an x/y pattern inside the piano. this struck me as a crazy idea that would not work well. i still beleive i am right. at best it has sounded thin and weak, with a poor image. it also does NOT work at all for FOH or monitors. instant howling when using these mics with amplification. well, i let them do it ONCE. the next several times we did this i tried different mics each time and tried to get them to listen to the difference. some things we tried that worked: 1. spaced 414's - works somewhat for amplifying.2. spaced 81's - works pretty well for amplifying.3. single 414 - worked very well but positioning was crucial.4. lid techniques do not work in this situation. way to much bleed from drumset. when i am on my own without students, i often find that a pair or even a single mic of any decent caliber will work well. but not 98's. i have overcome a variety of "wrong" skills aquired by these studentsbut this one remains. they swear the 98's sound the best in an x/y setup about an inch from the strings. i say this sounds like crap. am i right or should i go sell hotdogs instead of recording? personally i like the 414's in a piano for a stage sound. 81's are "OK" at best i like a pair of neumanns on a jecklin disc in the room, and we do run this in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gearmike Posted January 27, 2006 Members Share Posted January 27, 2006 Coaster, Shure makes a mic clamp like what the 98's come with, but it has a thread fitting to mount a regular mic onto. What I like to do in similar situations to yours is take that clamp and clamp to one of the "ribs" of the piano and then mount a 414. I usually end up with one mic splitting the upper strings near the hammers and another 414 towards the middle of the piano to get more body. This lets you use the short stick or even close the lid if you need to, plus you don't have any mic stands visable. This works great for recording and FOH. For monitors you need to get a Barcus Berry Piano pick up. They sound really hard and nasally, but you can get tons of gain out them for monitors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Not Serial Posted January 27, 2006 Author Members Share Posted January 27, 2006 see, thats almost exactly what i have been doing with the 414's, only with boom stands. and it DOES sound decent. the FOH guy throws in a 57 for a monitor send. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gearmike Posted January 27, 2006 Members Share Posted January 27, 2006 I've laid an SM58 on it's little leatherette pouch near one of the sound holes and used that in the monitors...not great but it worked. I just remembered that I have used the Beta98's on a piano before. I put them in almost the exact same place that I put the 414's. Worked out pretty good. Not great but pretty good. C460's work well too if you want the small diaphram kinda sound. The thing I find wrong with your students technique is that I don't want a "stereo" picture of the piano. I'm not interested in making the low notes sit on the left side of the image and the high stuff off to the right. Especially in a big band setting. I want to capture the sound of the piano the way I would hear it in the room. As much as possible close mic'ing things... I'll slightly pan the two mics that I use, but I'm not trying to get the piano to sound like I'm sitting at the bench. I want to have the hammer-sound, the intelligibility part of the sound panned slightly towards the side tha piano is on, usually the right(stage right), and the woody / body sound panned a little bit left...just to give the piano some space...but I don't want a run to go across the stereo field... But hey that's just me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kiwiburger Posted January 27, 2006 Members Share Posted January 27, 2006 Bad piano mic'ing is everywhere - especially sample CD's. A trick I read about using a single mic in a piano is to favor the bass end. This means it will be a little dull, so brighten it with eq. The result is that the bass harmonics are brightened too, and the end result should be nice. Normally, people would position a single mic to favour the treble, and then try to restore the low end with eq. That just makes for a muddy ineffective sound. I like mono piano too - it's much punchier, wide stereo piano just sound's wierd, unless you are solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted January 27, 2006 Members Share Posted January 27, 2006 they swear the 98's sound the best in an x/y setup about an inch from the strings. So they mic what, like about an octave? I bet that sounds like crap. I'm a major fan of 414's for live recording and reinfocement. However I add a third mic, usually a dynamic, usually a Shure Beta56 with a windscreen, and I mic one of the soundboard holes. I carve the hell out of it, dumping everything below 400hz and above 2khz. It's strickly for cut. The 414's usually sit about 8-10" above the strings, in cardiod mode, one over the first 2 octaves about 2 feet back from the hammers, the other just above middle C and about a foot back from the hammers. I generally try to gos short stick if possible, but that's determined by the artists reception to it, which often is nix, so it's full stick. I usually carry a chunck of Sonex to tape onto the lid to lessen the reflections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted January 27, 2006 Members Share Posted January 27, 2006 Depending on the sound of the piano, I rather like micing the bass strings with a bright mic, and the treble strings with a darker mic. Watch the 3:1 rule so you don't get excessive phasing issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Not Serial Posted January 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2006 thanks everyone, this was exactly what i was looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted January 30, 2006 Members Share Posted January 30, 2006 3 things that work for me. I do like spaced pairs above the stirings, bu tI do about a foot or more, .. and I angle them so that on axiz is "looking" farther away, and then I conpensate for the distace law, with teh polar pattern of the mic. second I find that if you take 1 mic and put it inside, RIGHT up on teh lid, it makes it in to a boundry mic, plus teh lid itself will vibrate, so you can get seom very nice sounds like that. Third, and most polular method I use, is 2 414's spaces about 8inch apart, and sittin just outside (about 4 inch) of the "croch" or curve of the panio, looking in to panio, with lid and half stick. If it si classicial , I with use way dif technics, but for jazz, and rock ect... I use these three. never XY though, it just never worked for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Han Posted January 30, 2006 Members Share Posted January 30, 2006 PZM's, taped to the lid, done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted January 30, 2006 Members Share Posted January 30, 2006 Originally posted by Han PZM's, taped to the lid, done. Fine for rock, where you need cut over the amplified instruments, but not much on natural sound. Plus the fact that a big band is going to want to play high stick, and all you'll get is everything but piano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members franknputer Posted January 30, 2006 Members Share Posted January 30, 2006 Just as another alternative - I've had good results from placing a cardioid condenser mic directly underneath the piano, pointing straight up, & mixing that with one or two inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted January 30, 2006 Members Share Posted January 30, 2006 Yep, a good condensor under the soundboard, provided Mr 'what, me too loud?" guitarist hasn't decided his amp must go under the piano is an excellent technique. While it won't produce on it's own, similiar to my hole mic, it provides better clarity in that 400-1.6k range that is difficult to maintain with standard techniques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Not Serial Posted January 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2006 the gig was saturday, went well. slide hampton played as guest soloist - that man can really play. we used two 414's, one by the hammer area high side, and the other a little deeper into the strings low side. combined with the neumanns miking the room - the sounds blend together well enough to question whether we miked the piano at all. the whole thing was multitracked. this band plays short stick piano, so we end up close to the strings. we only have a few inches to work with in there. the bass and guitar are next to the piano, and the bass comes through the piano mics. fortunately the bass player is top-notch and doesnt play overly loud. the guitar didnt bleed into the piano mikes. i dont have it mixed down yet, but i fired it up today and it sounds great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted January 31, 2006 Members Share Posted January 31, 2006 try kicking one or both piano mics out of phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted January 31, 2006 Members Share Posted January 31, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 Fine for rock, where you need cut over the amplified instruments, but not much on natural sound. Plus the fact that a big band is going to want to play high stick, and all you'll get is everything but piano. "high stick" you meanlike full stick lip open??? that is odd, all teh jazz guys around hear do 1/2 stick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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