Members Anderton Posted January 2, 2007 Members Share Posted January 2, 2007 (Every month, a new editorial is posted in Sound, Studio, and Stage. Your comments and feedback are encouraged!) The Software Stability Crisis Maybe progress never stops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ara Ajizian Posted January 2, 2007 Members Share Posted January 2, 2007 This is exactly why when I find something that works, I stick with it. It takes an awful lot of improvement for me to risk switching stuff around and screwing something up. Windows Vista looks really cool, but I'll definitely be waiting until the first Service Pack before I consider upgrading. That should also give other software companies time to make their programs work correctly under Vista too. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EccentRick Posted January 3, 2007 Members Share Posted January 3, 2007 Originally posted by arracado This is exactly why when I find something that works, I stick with it. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke.... Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted January 3, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 Say NO to upgrades. Drive it until the wheels fall off. The problem is related to the fact that the vendors have to make money. There's no such thing as an annual license or support contract in our industry, so the only way they can keep the cash flowing is to sell us new product. And they encourage us to buy by dropping support when the time comes. Would you be willing to pay for a new version of your favorite program that will run under your new OS or on your new computer or with your new interface? Probably not. You expect that for free, but how is the company going to pay for the development work they need to do in order to accommodate your changes? So a common reaction is to be pissed and swear you'll never buy from That #&@$#! Company again and get yourself into something new, with a new set of growing pains. Think about it. Do you really need to run Vista when your software is running fine under WinXP? Do you really need a new program that will only run under Vista? Maybe you can discover a feature of your old program that you never knew about and figure out how to do the new trick with your old dog. Sure, sometime will be the right time to move forward. But it doesn't have to be as soon as a new product is announced. Fast Edit on a Pentium II running Win98SE is still working just fine for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted January 3, 2007 Members Share Posted January 3, 2007 As far as I can tell, Vista is an answer to a question no user has asked. The question: Now everyone has WinXP, how are we poor Microsoft folks going to make any money next year? As long as people have money to piss away on stuff they have been convinced they want but really don't need, there'll always be people who're happy to take their money.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Frantag Posted January 4, 2007 Members Share Posted January 4, 2007 Innovate or die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted January 4, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 4, 2007 > Check out the February issue of EQ, which has an article about Vista's insides. A lot has happened at the audio end, and there has been a major effort to minimize latency. Of course this is all just promises right now, but having been privy to some conversations regarding latency between Paul Reed Smith and a very high up Microsoft engineer, it seems they're serious about making Vista a MUCH more pro audio-friendly OS, and recognize that previous versions of Windows did have flaws that need to be addressed. As the old saying goes, "I'll believe it when I see it," and I am not going to upgrade immediately because, well, I need to get work done But it may be that Vista will indeed offer advantages for audio people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted January 4, 2007 Members Share Posted January 4, 2007 Originally posted by MikeRivers Say NO to upgrades. Drive it until the wheels fall off. I know where you're coming from, and I treat my cars that way, but software and computers is a little different. The problem is forward compatability. You can usually skip a generation, but I get concerned about old data files not playing nicely with new versions of applications. I work as a paralegal and I've been involved in law firm IT work where preserving legacy data is very important. If you want to pull out an old document from a hard drive, the application has to be able to recognize it. I've seen older WordPerfect files that are supposed to be readable open up as a bunch of gobbledegook because of changes in font handling, page layout, or whatever. I equate this with yor audio program handling sample packages, soft synths and effect plug-ins. Suppose you record something today, and five years from now you have an opportunity to work with a famous artist who loves your song. Wouldn't it be great to provide a compatible computer file? Wouldn't it be embarrassing to be asked for one and have it turn out to be useless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted January 4, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 Originally posted by Anderton Check out the February issue of EQ, which has an article about Vista's insides. A lot has happened at the audio end, and there has been a major effort to minimize latency. As the old saying goes, "I'll believe it when I see it," and I am not going to upgrade immediately because, well, I need to get work done But it may be that Vista will indeed offer advantages for audio people. It depends on which audio people. Reducing latency is important to people who need to play their computer like a musical instrument, and this will probably become good enough not to bother anyone fairly soon if we're not there already (with the right programs on a properly optimized system). But there will always be a certain amount of latency in monitoring of a recording system which can only be overcome with an analog signal path. Perhaps Vista will provide the hooks which ASIO is supposed to be able to implement that will allow an external A/D/A converter box (perhaps in the form of a console) to be aware of record and playback status of a track and switch the monitor path accordingly just like a real tape deck. But it will take the ability to control the external hardware before hardware manufacturers will add that capability. There seems to be a lot of concern about DRM functions implemented in Vista. I don't believe that this is well enough understood (at least by common folks like us) to do more than panic and grumble, but there are some things that look like they're headed in the same direction as SCMS, and you remember what that did to DAT as a medium. Some may say "good riddance" to DAT, but it's been around longer than any version of Windows. Here's someone's long rant. Read at your own risk: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted January 4, 2007 Members Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hey Mike, wanna buy gently used DAT deck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chipmcdonald Posted January 4, 2007 Members Share Posted January 4, 2007 Vista might wreck MS, IMO. They're using a sales model based around the XP roll out. Which is completely flawed. In that circumstance, things were very different. Back then, not *everybody* had a computer... BUT, everybody was in the process of getting one. Likewise, a lot of people ended up on XP by default. Software houses saw the user base was going to be huge, so they moved to it. That's not going to happen this time. It's not going to happen in a big way. AND.... What MS (and I think everyone, from what I've read) is missing is that by default they're creating a situation that will encourage installations to move to Linux. When Vista comes out, and companies around the U.S. and elsewhere convene their "are we going to migrate to Vista? Do we need to?" meetings, they're also going to do something else: They're going to talk about costs. I know of a few companies in my town that are going to try Linux. I wouldn't be surprised if others don't take this opportunity not to switch to Vista - but to go to Linux instead. SOFTWARE STABILITY CRISIS?--------------------------------- In audio? I don't know what's going on in the Digi-centric world. I'm using Reaper - that's been the most stable audio program I've used, not to mention the most streamlined and at this point feature useful - and free plugins... and I don't have any problems. Plus, I get to use whatever interface I want..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted January 4, 2007 Members Share Posted January 4, 2007 Originally posted by Anderton [snip]... Both companies and consumers will need to be more patient about how rapidly they can accommodate the rate of change, because if one thing is certain, it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dylan Walters Posted January 5, 2007 Members Share Posted January 5, 2007 Excellent thread So many people jump on the upgrade bandwagon without thinking it through just to see the cool new icons and/or bells and whistles. What people tend to forget about is that every time you add a bunch of features it usually makes the code bigger, more bloated, and more resource intensive. Don't believe me? Go out and find an old version of Vegas Audio, ACID, whatever, and see how fast it runs! I think people need to get out of the mentality of 'upgrading' working solutions, and instead invest in a completely new set of tools that utilizes and supports the latest and greatest software. This way, you have a stable production environment where everything is known to work well, *and* a place to play around with the latest and greatest tools. Once you test and verify that the new system is good enough for production, you can retire your old system as a backup. Regarding Vista: I'll be *very* surprised if it offers any substantial improvement for professional audio or video. My guess is that it will be the opposite. I hate to say it, but my prediction is that MS will have the same type of backlash (if not more) with Vista as they did with Millennium when it was released. OEM providers will be flooded with requests to exchange Vista for XP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted January 5, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Originally posted by Dylan Walters Go out and find an old version of Vegas Audio, ACID, whatever, and see how fast it runs! I still do my bookkeeping on an old DOS version of Lotus 1-2-3 because the macros that I've been using for about 15 years don't translate to Excel. It's fast, fast, fast. But not cool, cool, cool. I think people need to get out of the mentality of 'upgrading' working solutions, and instead invest in a completely new set of tools that utilizes and supports the latest and greatest software.Huh? How is this different from an "upgrade?" New stuff to learn how to work, and hope it stays around to support the latest and greatest software. What you really need to do is get a system that does what you need to do and use it as is. Does 384 kHz sample rate for your virtual Hammond organ really sound better than what you have now? If not, then don't bother to get that new virtual instrument system that requires a new OS to run. Unfortunately, you can't get away with that in this business very long. If you don't have this-or-that plug-in because it isn't supported by your system of choice, eventually a client is going to fine someone who has it (whether he really needs it or not - this is a creative business and he wants to see what he can create with it). I hate to say it, but my prediction is that MS will have the same type of backlash (if not more) with Vista as they did with Millennium when it was released. OEM providers will be flooded with requests to exchange Vista for XP. The professional audio community is just a tiny fraction of the PC user community. As long as it plays MP3 files and DVDs and all the games, they aren't going to have a lot of requests for a trade-down. We just don't have enough clout to make any difference and we have to go along for the ride. Where there's clout is in the corporate IT world. I suspect that once they get the hang of it, they'll embrace Vista for whatever security enhancements it has over XP. That's probably why Microsoft released it to them a few months before the general public gets it (legitimately anyway). CompUSA has the XP Home Upgrade edition on sale this week for $40. I'll probalby pick up a copy since I know I'll be putting together a new computer in the next year or two. I still have a full Win95 disk that I can "upgrade." Hopefully I'll get around to installing it before Microsoft cuts out suport to the extent that I can't validate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted January 5, 2007 Members Share Posted January 5, 2007 THIS article in the Brit IT journal, The Register: Vista's Suicide Bomb: who gets hurt? covers just a couple of the issues that will negatively affect Vista users, specifically related to how Vista's attempts at DRM management adversely affect system performance. It also addresses the intentional impairment of signal quality as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted January 5, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Originally posted by Billster The problem is forward compatability. You can usually skip a generation, but I get concerned about old data files not playing nicely with new versions of applications. I keep reminding people of that when they talk about "archiving" their projects on CD, then DVD, then Firewire disk drives, then BluRay or whatever. Analog tape still plays good enough most of the time. I'd rather bake a tape than build a new computer to play an old disk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted January 5, 2007 Members Share Posted January 5, 2007 I can see a Mad Max style post-apocalyptic computer scene with all these people trying to keep old copies of XP going... If... I... can... just keep... going... 'til... Sonar... for... Li... nux... c-c-comes out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted January 5, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 5, 2007 From the "Suicide Bomb" article: "Compromising the open PC platform for the sake of playing back BluRay and HD-DVD simply nukes the PC in the consumer electronics market - but that's somewhere it arguably should never have been in the first place." +1 "Despite Wintel's best efforts, the PC makes for a lousy home entertainment hub." +1 "It's still too fussy, complicated and expensive: a case of technological overkill driven solely by the vendors, led by Microsoft and Intel." +1 Frankly, I doubt that the DRM will impact anything I do on a PC. I suspect a different conspiracy theory, if you will: That companies are fed up with employees surfing the web and playing content on company time using their PCs. Vista will mean more of a return to business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted January 5, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Originally posted by Anderton Frankly, I doubt that the DRM will impact anything I do on a PC. I suspect a different conspiracy theory, if you will: That companies are fed up with employees surfing the web and playing content on company time using their PCs. Vista will mean more of a return to business. I haven't been following the latest studies on this since I retired, but in general it's been that on-line "play" during the work day doesn't really impact the amount or quality of employees' work. What HAS impacted their work is the quality of employees available. They just don't make people like they used to. On a slightly related issue, Marketplace radio did a piece on a "burn once only" DVD copy protection scheme from our friends at Sonic Solutions. I went to the Sonic web site to see if I could read more about what they're doing and it locked up my web browser of choice for many years, Netscape 7.1. I had to use the windows (2000, thank you) Task Manager to get out of it. Explorer worked. Sure, this is "free" software and I can get a newer version of Netscape or its heir apparent Firefox, and there's probably a way to import my bookmarks, but how about stored passwords? I figured that out in Netscape when migrating to a new computer, but I'd have to go through that again if I changed to another "free" web browser. Where are standards when we need them? If someone wants to enhance their web site to take advantage of new browser capabilities, that's fine. But at least let me see the un-enhanced version as long as the information ion the site s still viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Billster Posted January 5, 2007 Members Share Posted January 5, 2007 In re: Forward compatability Originally posted by MikeRivers I keep reminding people of that when they talk about "archiving" their projects on CD, then DVD, then Firewire disk drives, then BluRay or whatever. Analog tape still plays good enough most of the time. I'd rather bake a tape than build a new computer to play an old disk. Just like your Lotus 1-2-3 macros that don't work in Excel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tradivoro1 Posted January 5, 2007 Members Share Posted January 5, 2007 I think we've reached a plateau in music production software and equipment that for a lot of us, what we have will continue to work for many years to come... I think back to the old days... If your studer had problems, you fixed it and the machine worked again... Also, you had 24 tracks to work with and that was it, unless you combined a couple of machines... But a lot of great music was made with 24 tracks... At the end of day, the question we gotta ask ourselves is, do we want to make music or do we want to continue to amass technology? Right now, I think that technologically, at this point in time, we have some of the best tools to make music that we've had in the whole history of humanity... And ironically, we also have some of the worse music that humanity has ever produced... Meaning to say, that supposedly better technology does not necessarily mean better music.... So, in my situation, I can continue using my present setup for a long, long time... The present version of my programs work perfectly fine.... I don't see Vista in my future... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dylan Walters Posted January 5, 2007 Members Share Posted January 5, 2007 Originally posted by MikeRivers Huh? How is this different from an "upgrade?" What I was trying to put across is that people with good, stable systems running older software and hardware should leave it alone and purchase an entirely new system to run any new products. This way, your production system stays untouched and you can test your new platform without affecting your mission critical work. The professional audio community is just a tiny fraction of the PC user community. As long as it plays MP3 files and DVDs and all the games, they aren't going to have a lot of requests for a trade-down. We just don't have enough clout to make any difference and we have to go along for the ride. I realize that the professional audio community is just a tiny fraction of the PC user community and has little to say in what happens in the design of a new OS. However, there are still many hardware devices that don't have support for Vista and people buying new systems that ship with this OS are going to be SOL until they get new drivers. Where there's clout is in the corporate IT world. I suspect that once they get the hang of it, they'll embrace Vista for whatever security enhancements it has over XP. That's probably why Microsoft released it to them a few months before the general public gets it (legitimately anyway). I'm not sure that I totally agree with you here. I work as a Systems Engineer supporting thousands of users running XP. To upgrade everyone to Vista would be a huge task, let alone the fact that all of our 3rd party software would have to be tested and verified to work properly under the new OS. For example, our Antivirus solution currently doesn't support Vista or IE7. I don't see any corporate users needing or requesting any of the new features that Vista offers. The biggest crowd for Vista is going to be people that want to utulize the new Media Center features. Home users, essentially. Only time will tell.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted January 5, 2007 Members Share Posted January 5, 2007 Cakewalk's marketing dept, OTOH, manages to make it all seem like a great big, wonderful new world... http://cakewalk.com/images/SONAR6/SONAR6_brochure.pdf But now that I look at that brochure again I notice that, while they talk about 64-bit "end-to-end" processing they never once apparently mention "Vista." Hmmm... Hey, CW -- Linux comes in 64 bit, too! [Hint, hint.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted January 6, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 Originally posted by Dylan Walters What I was trying to put across is that people with good, stable systems running older software and hardware should leave it alone and purchase an entirely new system to run any new products. I guess I agree with that, though they should only get a new system and new products when they have the time to fool with them, but not before they have a need, or at least legitimately anticipate a need. I realize that the professional audio community is just a tiny fraction of the PC user community and has little to say in what happens in the design of a new OS. However, there are still many hardware devices that don't have support for Vista and people buying new systems that ship with this OS are going to be SOL until they get new drivers.This is true. Today I bought a copy of Windows XP Home Upgrade for $35. Apparently CompU$A doesn't want people to buy it once Vista is on the shelf. I figure that some time this year I'll finally break down and put together a more modern PC, and this will be the operating system for it. I'm not planning to buy any new audio hardware or software to go with it, so no need for Vista for a few more years yet. I work as a Systems Engineer supporting thousands of users running XP. To upgrade everyone to Vista would be a huge task, let alone the fact that all of our 3rd party software would have to be tested and verified to work properly under the new OS.For sure, but this will come in good time, and the corporate world has the money to make the switch. And while luddites like me can continue to run our 2-track editors under Win98, business needs to stay in business. The biggest crowd for Vista is going to be people that want to utulize the new Media Center features. Home users, essentially. Only time will tell.... The biggest crowd for Vista will be those who don't have any idea what an operating system is or what it does, but they buy a new computer every couple of years and their next one will have Vista on it. The greatest number of people who have it will have bought it by choice. They simply were offered no alternative, nor knew to ask for one. The only drivers they'll be worried about are for their old printer that they haven't had a chance to replace yet. Does Vista support the Epson MX-80? (as a coprorate jock, you might have a few of those still running) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted January 6, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 Originally posted by tradivoro1 I think we've reached a plateau in music production software and equipment that for a lot of us, what we have will continue to work for many years to come.Of course it will, but the problem is that we're tempted by the new stuff that's available. I think back to the old days... If your studer had problems, you fixed it and the machine worked again.Right. But if your 2408 or 1010 or Firepod goes on the fritz, it's not nearly as repairable as the old Studer or Ampex tape deck. A "better" replacement costs much less than a repair, so you buy it, and then you have to make it work with your old comuter. That's where the trouble starts. It's not like we want to replace our old equipment, we pretty much have to. But a lot of great music was made with 24 tracks.A lot of great recordings were made with one or two tracks. But they were made by experienced engineers, recording good musicians who could play well for the duration of the song, and recorded in an acoustical space that supported the music rather than one that had to be made to disappear. We do things differently now, and keeping our hardware "up to date" is just part of the game. Right now, I think that technologically, at this point in time, we have some of the best tools to make music that we've had in the whole history of humanity... And ironically, we also have some of the worse music that humanity has ever produced... Meaning to say, that supposedly better technology does not necessarily mean better music....I can't say that I disagree but this is a whole other subject. It's people who produce music, not gadgets. So, in my situation, I can continue using my present setup for a long, long time... The present version of my programs work perfectly fine.... I don't see Vista in my future... You can use it as long as you can keep it working. But a 30 year old Ampex can still sound great. Will your computer still be working in 30 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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