The song fadeout... please share your lore & opinions...

[rasputin1963]

Billy Joel once said that no great pop record ever ended with a fadeout... He felt that a great record ends with a properly thought-out ending: a coda or a stinger or an outro, etc.

 

Do you agree/disagree? When is a fadeout the best choice for ending a record?

 

There truly is an art to mixing a great fadeout, wouldn't you say? Choosing the exact perfect moment in which to begin your fade is crucial...

 

I notice that some great pop records really have multiple fadeouts: a slight one in the last chorus, a more dramatic one at the end, then that final "tail" which is often perceived subliminally.

 

It is also often true that some of the song's most interesting melodic or soloing activity takes place in that final fadeout... almost a way of "hooking" you into wishing the song would never end, or at least not end so soon...

 

Sometimes entirely new melodic elements will be introduced during the fade.

 

I also observe that fadeouts-- ideally, and in the better pop records-- do not fadeout the entire frequency spectrum at the same rate: Maybe it's merely an anomaly of the Fletcher-Munsen Curve, but it seems as though the bass and high treble fade first, while the midrange is still jammin'.... then gradually the midrange fades to nothing.

 

Have you thoughts or principles or lore or "secrets" surrounding record fadeouts?

 

P.S. I think my favorite fadeout must be in that 1971 song "Tighter, Tighter" by Alive 'N' Kicking (produced by Tommy James of the Shondells). Second place: "Hurdy-Gurdy Man" by Donovan. Yours?

[Phil O'Keefe]

Billy Joel once said that no great pop record ever ended with a fadeout... He felt that a great record ends with a properly thought-out ending: a coda or a stinger or an outro, etc.

 

No offense to Billy Joel, but I call blarney.

 

Two words for ya Billy - "Hey Jude".

 

Yes, it has a coda, but it's a fade out ending.

 

Then again, another friend is fond of saying "fade out is a cop out", and if it's done as a cop-out, you know, because someone was too lazy to consider the possibilities and pick what is best instead of what was easiest... then I'm not in favor of a fade out. But if it works, and sounds good, then why not? It's just another tool in the toolbox - to be used as appropriate and not abused / misused.

 

Just my two cents.

[Ani]

 

When is a fadeout the best choice for ending a record?

 

 

Never....

 

I like the "fade out/cop out" comparison, myself. Perfect example of ruined recordings due to the ending: Feeling Stronger Every Day by Chicago. Although they were one of my favorite groups when I was a kid, I've learned to despise the endings on most of their earlier works. It was not until after the death of Terry Kath that Chicago learned closure on their songs.

[MikeRivers]

 

Originally posted by rasputin1963 Billy Joel once said that no great pop record ever ended with a fadeout... He felt that a great record ends with a properly thought-out ending: a coda or a stinger or an outro, etc. Do you agree/disagree? When is a fadeout the best choice for ending a record? There truly is an art to mixing a great fadeout, wouldn't you say? Choosing the exact perfect moment in which to begin your fade is crucial...

I don't think there's anything wrong with writing a song that ends with a fadeout, but that's not a substitute for writing an ending to the song if one is called for.

 

Sometimes the song has a logical end, but it's too short so they (either via editing or arrangement) stretch it out and fade. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

It's all about the song. If you have to fade it out in order to end it because there was no plan, there's probably something wrong right at the input.

[UstadKhanAli]

Lot of wonderful songs have fadeouts. Fadeouts create a sense of the song continuing on and on,into the ether, and there are sometimes when the artist wants to impart this. Fadeouts are a perfectly valid way to end a song. It may be Billy Joel's opinion, but it ain't mine.

[Lee Knight]

Wow. Nice idea for a topic.

 

Fadeouts. I'm pretty good at them I think... and that's a crutch I use a lot. I have developed a lot of creative and informed ways to work both the content and the actual volume manipulation of the fadeout itself, and yet I really should push for more structured endings.

 

Think of the La Grange fade out. It's as if a dusty group of banditos continue to ride a full speed through the desert with no foreseeable end in sight. They will continue to pillage way past sunset... that's a good fade.

 

Sometimes though, I'll just recap the intro theme with added improv elements and strategicly place my fade. Done. It's not exactly a throw away but could be more creative.

 

A while ago we started getting the solo vox hangover past the muted music trick. That was nice until every other tune included it. It's a trick.

 

I've got to say, though Billy Joel has stated his case in an overboard sort of way, he's got a point. I'd like to start arranging more proper endings.

 

Coda.

[spokenward]

I think of two different categories.

 

_Fades are a device of recording, not of song writing.

 

They are two different things. Historically fades were representative of live performances bigger and better than the tiny slice of preserved recording. Ani's recollection of Chicago is perfect for this category.

 

_Fades are representative of internal voices

 

Phil's "Hey Jude" example. I think that that probably traces back to chant forms. They end when we stop hearing them in our heads.

[coyote-1]

Agreed. I always wondered how they created such great songs and then couldn't figure out how to end them. It's like they were always striving for a "Soul Man" ending, but could never come up with anything original AND good.

 

Originally posted by Ani Although they were one of my favorite groups when I was a kid, I've learned to despise the endings on most of their earlier works.

 

[the stranger]

I don't mind a fadeout. It works on some tunes. On others, it makes you mad because you could hear that they were still jamming!

 

How about the fade in? Those situations where the song doesn't really have a start, but just fades in from the ether. You hear this a bit on albums, but not on radio singles much. No time for long winded intros, let alone a fade in. -~

[cooterbrown]

Off the top of my head...I give you some popular Billy Joel songs with fadeouts:

 

My Life

Just the Way You Are

You May Be Right

I Go to Extremes

Uptown Girl

Big Shot

Only the Good Die Young

Say Goodbye to Hollywood

The Stranger

Captain Jack

Movin' Out

 

So, wtf, Billy?

 

That's a big chunk of your own Greatest Hits compilation....those aren't great pop songs?

 

(I think most of them are)

 

[boosh]

I never finish a song so I have no clue,....

[coyote-1]

At least one of those songs ends; most of the rest have outtros. That's different than a fadeout, even if it does fade out.

Originally posted by cooterbrown Off the top of my head...I give you some popular Billy Joel songs with fadeouts: My Life Just the Way You Are You May Be Right I Go to Extremes Uptown Girl Big Shot Only the Good Die Young Say Goodbye to Hollywood The Stranger Captain Jack Movin' Out So, wtf, Billy? That's a big chunk of your own Greatest Hits compilation....those aren't great pop songs? (I think most of them are)

[BATCAT]

 

Originally posted by rasputin1963 Do you agree/disagree? When is a fadeout the best choice for ending a record?

 

 

Fadeouts have always kinda irked me. In fact I've debated this with my band, none of whom have a problem with them, more than a few times. I do think it's often something of a cop-out, and it often sounds "weak". I'll admit there are some songs where it does work, though.

 

But usually, I feel there's a more creative option that could be explored.

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by Actionsquid But usually, I feel there's a more creative option that could be explored.

 

 

It's really your last opportunity for the song to be remembered. Why not take the opportunity and have people notice the song before saying goodbye instead of slinking away.

 

BAM!!! See ya!

[60hurts]

Who can deny the chilling effect of the high-pitched single note fade-outs of Jimi Hendrix in "Purple Haze" or "All Along The Watchtower"?

Fade-outs are part of nature and sounds of everyday life. A gust of wind bursting through and fading out in a patch of pine trees. A train rumbling by and fading out as it rolls down the line.

And fade-outs CAN be done live. Yeah, it usually sucks & confuses the hell out of the audience, but it's fun.

Give me fade-outs or give me death!

[blue2blue]

Originally posted by rasputin1963 Billy Joel once said that no great pop record ever ended with a fadeout... He felt that a great record ends with a properly thought-out ending: a coda or a stinger or an outro, etc. ...[snip]

 

The day I start taking my songwriting wisdom from Billy Joel... ah, never mind.

 

 

Me... I don't use many fadeouts and, my comment above notwithstanding, I think I like "real" endings better, in general.

 

OTOH, there are no hard and fast rules in MY book...

 

 

One "bad habit" I've embraced since my first days with my own multitrack is the "fall apart" ending that harkens back to my days in punk bands... that's how ALL our songs ended and it stuck in my head... it can be tough to get that kind of "everything falls apart" spontaneity out of a drum machine, though, I gotta tell you.

[Godot]

I hate fadeouts. A good clean ending makes a better song. Consider what these songs would have been like if they had just faded out:

 

The Beatles, "A Day in the Life"

The Beatles, "Let It Be"

Beethoven, 9th Symphony

Pink Floyd, "Eclipse"

The Who, "Love, Reign O'er Me"

[the stranger]

Originally posted by blue2blue The day I start taking my songwriting wisdom from Billy Joel ... ah, never mind. Me... I don't use many fadeouts and, my comment above notwithstanding, I think I like "real" endings better, in general. OTOH, there are no hard and fast rules in MY book... One "bad habit" I've embraced since my first days with my own multitrack is the "fall apart" ending that harkens back to my days in punk bands... that's how ALL our songs ended and it stuck in my head... it can be tough to get that kind of "everything falls apart" spontaneity out of a drum machine, though, I gotta tell you.

 

Billy Joel used to write great songs, man!

 

And I know exactly what you mean with the fall apart ending. Been doing that little "trick" since I first started recording. I've even got a few fall apart beginnings.

 

You can still get it with the drum machine...the key is to break out the razor and cut a different beat to slap on the ending. Do make sure to have all the tracks ending at their own pace and without any observable reason.

It helps if the part you cut and paste (this only works with tape-no digital allowed) doesn't really mesh with the other parts that are trailing off at random.

 

Billy Joel wrote some of the greatest songs ever, you comments not withstanding.

[the stranger]

Fade outs vs Endings.

 

The new Mac vs PC.

 

Analog vs Digital re-revisited.

 

Makes me want to start doing more fades on songs that shouldn't have them and endings on songs that need a fade out.

It harkens back to my punk days. Back when Billy Joel was still writing good songs.

[cooterbrown]

 

Originally posted by coyote-1 At least one of those songs ends; most of the rest have outtros . That's different than a fadeout, even if it does fade out.

 

 

Well, actually, you're totally wrong...because I listened to every one of them after posting that, just to make sure.

 

You also have been reading too many guitar tab magazines that want to teach you improper musical terminology.

 

And just who made up that term "outro"?

 

Was it Wolf Marshall?

 

I mean... "intro" is short for "introduction", but there is no such word as "outroduction".

 

When did "coda" become a dirty word in the musical vocabulary?

[elsongs]

I realized some time ago that very few of the songs I wrote and recorded had fadeouts, I never made a conscious effort to do it, it was just natural to me. It also made things easier for the live version (some songs were done live before they were recorded, so maybe that's why). So my personal "trademark" for my songs is that all of them have an ending, regardless of genre.

[blue2blue]

Originally posted by 60hurts Who can deny the chilling effect of the high-pitched single note fade-outs of Jimi Hendrix in "Purple Haze" or "All Along The Watchtower"? Fade-outs are part of nature and sounds of everyday life. A gust of wind bursting through and fading out in a patch of pine trees. A train rumbling by and fading out as it rolls down the line. And fade-outs CAN be done live. Yeah, it usually sucks & confuses the hell out of the audience, but it's fun. Give me fade-outs or give me death!

 

Good call on "Watchtower"... Hendrix's guitar always made me think of Dylan's bleating, keening, whining harmonica... only when Hendrix did it, it sounded good... (Actually, I like the harp on Dylan's version of his song. But sometimes when I listen to some of the early Dylan I want to break out the harmonica-eliminator plug-in.)

 

 

With regard to your examples... how about the band playing from the back of a stake bed truck and driving away... (The Dillards on Andy Griffith, driving off into the hills, pickin'...)

 

Or, a much more common experience, simply walking away from some live music... that's a slow fade... depending on the band and PA it might be a REAL slow fade...

 

 

I can tell Stranger's trying to get into the Billy Joel thing with me but I ain't gonna go there...

 

No such thing as bad music, Stranger. It's all good. Who'm I to say a guy, looking back on the halcyon days of youth can't remember some music of the era favorably.

 

I mean... who among us doesn't have a soft spot for "You Me and a Dog Named Boo," "Chevy Van," "One Tin Soldier," "Afternoon Delight," or -- for that matter -- Joel's own "Piano Man."

 

It's all good, Stranger.

 

 

[Ani]

I mean... who among us doesn't have a soft spot for "You Me and a Dog Named Boo," "Chevy Van," "One Tin Soldier," "Afternoon Delight," or -- for that matter -- Joel's own "Piano Man."

 

You were on a roll until you mentioned Afternoon Delight... UGHHHHHHH!!!!

 

I liked all of the others mentioned, but Afternoon Delight was a really, really SAD excuse for a song relative to lovemaking. Hearing it NEVER left me in the mood, and actually, it would have KILLED a mood had one been going.

[Ani]

I do think that there are actually two separate subjects being discussed within the same topic here; fade-outs and codas.

 

When I initially responded to the thread, the mention of the fade-out technique brought back memories of all the bands that never learned how to end a song. They killed otherwise good songs with never-ending repetitious lyrics looping over and over again until your ears could no longer bear to hear them as the songs faded out. Some would go on for 45 seconds to 2 minutes to wrap up a song; after the 2nd or 3rd repeat, you've lost the listener. Fade-out or not.

 

However, there are fade-outs that take place after songs have already found their resolve and then they fade into a well planned coda that brings closure during the fade-out. To me, these types of fade-outs are welcome, as the music has already satisfied my thirst for hearing the next note. It's those endings that leave you hanging in mid air expecting the song to finish that annoy me.

 

Hendrix single note fade out had already met it's resolve.... the faded note would not have had the same appeal had the note cut off in the middle of a stanza where you were expecting to hear closure.

[alfonso]

I see fades (in and out) as expressive tools, not as workarounds.

 

The fade outs probably came out because of the jamming nature of some recordings and the natural limits of the media and the production needs, but they also brought something new, another way to play with space, in the same philosophy of creative mixing.

 

Naturally they must be studied very well, the fade out is a movement of the listener away from the music, or just the sensation that there are different realities that meet and separate, it can be a very powerful tool

 

The fade in can be great too, the slow approach to a new reality...I practice it sometimes!

 

Fades can be Xfades from different states of mind, some songs would loose a lot with a defined end, other songs need it, it depends on what do you want to say...

 

Either solution can be the right one or a mistake.

 

Btw, most of my stuff has a defined end, but I like long natural decays and don't feel always the need for resolution...sometimes I like to formally end the track but to force listener's fantasy to continue beyond the sound with an unresolved, enigmatic end.