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My Slum is bigger than your Slum.....


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I have been truly shocked at the slums of the world. This has become a newish sorta-thing as everyone has been migrating from the farming-type of lifestyle to the metropolitan, actually for a century.

 

But, what really freaked me, was that in Baghdad, there is a slum city called Sadr City, guess how many people inhabit this place? 2.5 million, if that doesn't impress you, Mexico City has a slum of 4 million people, the largest known slum on earth. I'm somewhat informed about places like Sao Paulo, South Africa, Bangledesh, Hong Kong, etc. by just looking at the news, but I really had no idea of the totality of this human wasteland until recently.

 

Chime in, please........

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What is the definition of a slum? Is a slum in L.A. the same as a slum in Lima?

 

 

I guess it's a matter of relativity. I visited some very poor parts of LA in 1980, where housing and conditions were a stark contrast to what I was seeing in other areas, but my first visit to Bombay completely spun me out for weeks. I felt I had been transported to another planet, another reality, populated by families living in oil cans, dumpsters, tin shacks, cardboard boxes, etc, all on top of eachother, mile after mile after mile of open sewers, rubbish heaps, wild dogs, cows, men, women and children..... Unbelievable. It changed forever my view of the world, and the great fortune we in the 'west' enjoy, largely at the expense of these people. We have absolutely nothing to complain about. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to compare the worst of the worst in the USA or Europe with what is reality to these 900 million human beings.

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I think that it is also a function of development. A better analogy might be that the slums of Chicago in the 1870s, 1880s, and 1890s would be the equivalent of slums in many developing cities today.

 

I was thinking of the SadrCity example for another reason. North of Chicago beyond the leafy suburbs of the North Shore, a days march from the city, a group of wealthy and influential business leaders donated the land for Fort Sheridan with the intent of an army base to quash labor unrest. The population of Chicago in 1870 was 298,977, in 1880 it was 503,185. In 1890 it was 1,099,850.

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The next time you are bemoaning the fact that you can't afford a Pro Tools HD unit, bear in mind how lucky you really are to have been born into a situation where you could get ahead financially and have many more choices. Most people aren't that lucky!

 

Well said Ken - While I have had some problems in my life that many people would consider to be fairly staggering, I still try to count my blessings very day, because I know I am quite fortunate compared to many other people.

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Oh yeah. I assume that most people are aware of how fortunate we are. By "we", I mean nearly anyone that is here on this forum, and thereby has access to a computer, and spends part of his or her day thinking about such extravagant things as making music as opposed to purely surviving.

 

I may complain about small stuff occasionally, but I'm always aware of how lucky I was to happen to be born into the cushiest society in the history of mankind.

 

- Jeff

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I guess it's a matter of relativity. I visited some very poor parts of LA in 1980, where housing and conditions were a stark contrast to what I was seeing in other areas, but my first visit to Bombay completely spun me out for weeks. I felt I had been transported to another planet, another reality, populated by families living in oil cans, dumpsters, tin shacks, cardboard boxes, etc, all on top of eachother, mile after mile after mile of open sewers, rubbish heaps, wild dogs, cows, men, women and children..... Unbelievable. It changed forever my view of the world, and the great fortune we in the 'west' enjoy, largely at the expense of these people. We have absolutely nothing to complain about. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to compare the worst of the worst in the USA or Europe with what is reality to these 900 million human beings.

 

 

 

I disagree - - there have always been, and will always be, poor people. It has nothing to do with what I personally do. It DOES have a lot to do with what people are willing to tolerate. Governments tolerate the poor until civil unrest threatens them. Corporations feed on the labor of the poor to create artificial wealth for stockholders. The poor tolerate this because it is much easier to live in the hole you know than to migrate to a new hole. There is free will - there are choices - always. And always at a cost. Those who are unwilling to bear the cost of risk will stay poor.

 

We have absolutely nothing to complain about.

You are absolutely right.

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UstadKhanali,


What a statistics man??? Are you an Indian Researcher or....how...

 

 

I actually have been to India four times, so I know what to Google for...but at the end of the day, it was still a Google search for the U.N. Report (searching for something by the World Health Organization would probably also yield some interesting findings) - something that anybody else could do. A link to the web site was provided in my previous post.

 

I should emphasize that India has really bolstered their economy and has improved greatly since I started going there many years ago. Every time I go there, I am completely blown away by their huge strides in just about every capacity. It's truly a great country in many many respects.

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I disagree - - there have always been, and will always be, poor people. It has nothing to do with what I personally do. It DOES have a lot to do with what people are willing to tolerate. Governments tolerate the poor until civil unrest threatens them. Corporations feed on the labor of the poor to create artificial wealth for stockholders. The poor tolerate this because it is much easier to live in the hole you know than to migrate to a new hole. There is free will - there are choices - always. And always at a cost. Those who are unwilling to bear the cost of risk will stay poor.

 

Most of the people who live in the slums in Bombay have already migrated from failed rural Village economies, mainly on foot. That was their last and only choice. Most of them have no work, they scavenge to survive.

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Amazing that a couple-of you folks have seen some of these places. Another one that comes to mind is, Cairo, they have started to live in cemetaries and making them slums, oh the irony and sadness of it all.

 

I haven't done much searching for info, just ran into a book on the internet about it, Im sure there are many, what a bizarre topic of concern for the future, and no-doubt, we aren't all millionaires, but most of us have it way better than these slum dwellers.

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I actually have been to India four times, so I know what to Google for...but at the end of the day, it was still a Google search for the U.N. Report (searching for something by the World Health Organization would probably also yield some interesting findings) - something that anybody else could do. A link to the web site was provided in my previous post.


I should emphasize that India has really bolstered their economy and has improved greatly since I started going there many years ago. Every time I go there, I am completely blown away by their huge strides in just about every capacity. It's truly a great country in many many respects.

 

Ken,

 

I appreciate your views about India....Being an Indian by race (I was b & b in Singapore) I feel a partly proud too..about the country's development despite political abnormalies..;)

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I remember driving into San Juan, Puerto Rico back in the late 80's and there were just miles and miles of people living in cardboard boxes. Some of them had come up with old pieces of metal for makeshift roofs. I couldn't believe it.

 

It was way worse in Honduras though.

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If you're interested, there are several good recent books on the subject. After the UN released their report on "The Challenge of Slums" in 2003, there seemed to be a rash of books that came out using the great in-depth research. My favorites are:

 

Mike Davis - Planet of Slums http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-1844670228-0

Suketu Mehta - Maximum City http://www.powells.com/biblio/61-0375403728-0

 

I imagine you can still find the UN report at http;//www.unhabitat.org

 

Of course, reading a book is nothing like experiencing the real thing first-hand.

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Ken,


I appreciate your views about India....Being an Indian by race (I was b & b in Singapore) I feel a partly proud too..about the country's development despite political abnormalies..
;)

 

You're very welcome. I really get the sense that Indians are very very proud of their progress, as well they should be!!!

 

As I mentioned earlier, I've been to India four times and have seen the progress. I take photos, which you may be interested in as well (click on the link below), but was also prompted to say the following after I visited in 2005:

 

http://www.elevenshadows.com/travels/india2005/index.htm

 

"So where are you going this summer?"

 

"India."

 

"Really? Why?" That's the most common reply. That and "Oh, how do you deal with all that poverty?" Replies such as these are are more a reflection on many Americans' perceptions of India and less on my decision to travel there.

 

A shame, really, since India is one of the greatest, most beautiful countries in the world.

 

Lisa, my girlfriend who accompanied me on the first half of this trip, and I have been enamored with India's beauty, spirituality, and culture. But during this last visit, I was wildly impressed by their progress as well. The first clue of this progress was while purchasing tickets at a train station. I saw a wheelchair ramp, something that I never saw in India just five years ago. And walking out to the train, I noticed that one of the cars of the train was reserved for the disabled. And now many of the toilets in the train stations and airports and other public facilities have wheelchair-accessible toilets. Surely one of the best indicators of how great a country is how it treats its citizens that are in need of help.

 

And of course, there were many other signs of progress: the near-absence of power shortages in many parts of the country (euphemistically called "load shedding"), improved roads (the tollroad between Jaipur and Ajmer, for example), the mushrooming of its middle class, many tourists from overseas traveling with small children, a greatly improved phone system, a reliable postal system, garbage cans everywhere for people to use, anti-dowry posters from the government, the clean and efficient Metro in New Delhi, the subway in Calcutta (Kolkata), their Army providing aid to tsunami victims in other countries, sending aid to people in Afghanistan, its impressive software and computer industry...

 

One barometer of progress in India has been ice cream. That's right, ice cream. When I first traveled to New Delhi, one could get ice cream at Nirula's in Connaught Place, maybe one other place. Elsewhere in the city, it was difficult if not impossible to get. And in most other cities - forget even thinking about towns or villages - ice cream could not be had. Now, of course, you can get ice cream literally anywhere, even in villages and small towns. But why is this so important? Because it indicates several things. You need a reliable, constant power source to store ice cream. And you need people with enough money to buy ice cream in the first place.

 

Or how about the cleaner air in Delhi? The first time I stayed in Delhi, the city was choked in black exhaust. I'd have black residue on my forearm if I walked around for several hours. When I returned home, I coughed up black phlegm for several weeks. But now, one can visibly see the difference. Sure, the exhaust is still pretty bad, but it's considerably better than before. Air quality in Delhi has improved significantly since a Supreme Court order mandating its bus fleets to convert to run on cleaner-burning compressed natural gas (CNG) came into effect in 2002. And now, the taxis can be retro-fitted to run on CNG as well, with more cities following suit.

 

Indians sometimes seem to have an inferiority complex. If you point out the progress their country has made, they'll often say, "Yes, but China is ahead of us. They're more advanced." And of course, that's true. But in my opinion, what India has done is far more impressive than what China has done. It's much easier for a country to have a singular vision if they are essentially a dictatorship. India is a democracy; China is run by the Communist Party. India has labor unions; China has prison camps, labor camps, and no labor unions. India has four times the amount of people living below poverty level than China. India is, as of this writing, 57 years old; China is 5000. What India has achieved is, in my opinion, nothing short of miraculous.

 

Yes, of course you can say that they still need a lot of improvement. No one will argue with that. Poverty, population explosion, AIDS, the need for stronger infrastructure, sex trafficking, child labor, its poor treatment of Kashmiris (although this is improving), all that. And obviously, what would help is if India can improve relations with Pakistan. This 50+ year conflict with Pakistan over a poorly-drawn map during Partition has inflicted a terrible toll on both countries, with billions and billions of rupees siphoned off to fuel a war with their neighbors when this could be going to help their people instead.

 

~~~~~~~~~

 

Oh, and about our trip...this trip took us from the very tail of India (Kannyikumari, the southern tip of India) to the very top - Kashmir, Heaven on Earth. Although this was my fourth trip to India, there is still so much to see of this fantastic country. You're gonna see pictures and descriptions of the most fantastic caves that you thought only existed in Indiana Jones movies, vibrant pictures of Hindu temple life, towering shrines, terraced paddy fields, neon cities, sacred mosques, colorful Tibetan monasteries rising up out of green farmlands, the beautiful lakes and dramatic Himalayan peaks of Kashmir, and some of the sweetest people in the world.

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I'm not too sure but although India as a country is only 57 yrs old and china is 5000 yrs. old, if I'm not mistaken, Indian culture is older than china. Chinese Martial Arts was brought by monks from India (or was it Syria) to China. Budha was from sixth century B.C. India. Taoism came from Tibet at about the same time, brought by Lao Tzu to china.

It might seem to be an inferiority complex but I think it's more a matter of pride that they as an older culture than the chinese and yet are "less" advanced than the chinese.

IMHO, although trade-wise, China might be bigger than India, I firmly believe that India is a lot more advanced and more inventive technologically than China. They are world leaders in medicine technology.

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I guess it's a matter of relativity. I visited some very poor parts of LA in 1980, where housing and conditions were a stark contrast to what I was seeing in other areas, but my first visit to Bombay completely spun me out for weeks. I felt I had been transported to another planet, another reality, populated by families living in oil cans, dumpsters, tin shacks, cardboard boxes, etc, all on top of eachother, mile after mile after mile of open sewers, rubbish heaps, wild dogs, cows, men, women and children..... Unbelievable. It changed forever my view of the world, and the great fortune we in the 'west' enjoy, largely at the expense of these people. We have absolutely nothing to complain about. There is nothing, absolutely nothing to compare the worst of the worst in the USA or Europe with what is reality to these 900 million human beings.

 

 

Thank you. I agree completely.

 

In the affluent city in which I live, I live in the "slums" - a subdivision that allows vinyl siding. We have it very good. Those who don't travel have no idea.

 

I think the worst large-scale slum I've encountered was likely Mexico City's although I have yet to go to Asia or Africa. We are so fortunate here. I've covered 42 states so far and seen nothing in the US that even comes near the adverse living conditions in other parts of the world.

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I disagree - - there have always been, and will always be, poor people. It has nothing to do with what I personally do. It DOES have a lot to do with what people are willing to tolerate. Governments tolerate the poor until civil unrest threatens them. Corporations feed on the labor of the poor to create artificial wealth for stockholders. The poor tolerate this because it is much easier to live in the hole you know than to migrate to a new hole. There is free will - there are choices - always. And always at a cost. Those who are unwilling to bear the cost of risk will stay poor.


We have absolutely nothing to complain about.

You are absolutely right.

 

 

Interesting point of view. I have to admit that in the past I have ranted at statements like this...it seems like a 'blame the victim' mentality. I also agree that there willl always be poor people...not because they are unwilling to take the risk necessary to improve their lot but because that's the way our social and economic systems are constructed and because there are just too many of us for the planet to support. I have no doubt that there are people who could improve their situation through greater effort and risk tolerance, but I don't think it's always true. Many of those who bear the cost of risk stay poor anyway, or become poorer. And as someone else said, when you think of slums of millions of people living in horrible poverty, 'take a chance and improve yourself' sounds a little weak.

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Most of the people who live in the slums in Bombay have already migrated from failed rural Village economies, mainly on foot. That was their last and only choice. Most of them have no work, they scavenge to survive.

 

 

Yes, the migration from countryside to urban is the cause of many, if not most, of the problems.

 

IMHO, people workldwide are forgetting that the only possible hedge against economic hard times is to grow your own food & livestock. Once you've left the land, you've put your fate into the hands of employers and financial entities (banks, governments and corporations) who do not care whether you live or die. Now THAT's what I call a risk! And it's a poor risk.

 

 

(Quote)

Interesting point of view. I have to admit that in the past I have ranted at statements like this...it seems like a 'blame the victim' mentality. I also agree that there willl always be poor people...not because they are unwilling to take the risk necessary to improve their lot but because that's the way our social and economic systems are constructed and because there are just too many of us for the planet to support. I have no doubt that there are people who could improve their situation through greater effort and risk tolerance, but I don't think it's always true. Many of those who bear the cost of risk stay poor anyway, or become poorer. And as someone else said, when you think of slums of millions of people living in horrible poverty, 'take a chance and improve yourself' sounds a little weak.

 

 

I guess that's why it's a risk - - some do OK, some do not.

 

Actually, I was expecting to get flamed quite a bit more on my post of opinion. I applaud the restraint of those who replied with reasoned and rational statements.

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I'm not too sure but although India as a country is only 57 yrs old and china is 5000 yrs. old, if I'm not mistaken, Indian culture is older than china. Chinese Martial Arts was brought by monks from India (or was it Syria) to China. Budha was from sixth century B.C. India. Taoism came from Tibet at about the same time, brought by Lao Tzu to china.

It might seem to be an inferiority complex but I think it's more a matter of pride that they as an older culture than the chinese and yet are "less" advanced than the chinese.

IMHO, although trade-wise, China might be bigger than India, I firmly believe that India is a lot more advanced and more inventive technologically than China. They are world leaders in medicine technology.

 

 

 

You bring up some good points, and it's probably a bit of both. When I am visiting there and bring up my points to them after they say, "Oh, yes, but China is ahead of us", they nod and beam with pride.

 

I also get a lot of people from India writing to me after viewing my opinions of India on my web site and thanking me for writing that. I just think that a lot of Westerners' perception of India is really dated, or if they do think that good things are happening there, they think that it's primarily due to the infusion of Western money for their computer technology and that through Microsoft, we're lifting them out of poverty, which is patently ridiculous.

 

I truly am in awe of India in every facet.

 

It's one of the great countries of the world.

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There are many factors contributing to these situations. A major factor is over population caused by lack of access to contraceptives. There is a direct correlation between lack of access to family planning techniques and information and poverty.

 

Unfortunately "pro-lifers" on the right have thwarted efforts to provide the needed services. And many on the left consider family planning efforts to be a form of genocide. It has gotten to the point that the topic of over-population has become taboo in USA politics. When was the last time you have heard a politician acknowledge that there is an over-population problem? Instead we pretend that the only issues are poverty and immigration.

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I truly am in awe of India in every facet.


It's one of the great countries of the world.

 

 

 

I totally agree, Ken. I haven't visited since 1991, but not a day goes by without me dreaming of India. For a country that has only been in charge of it's own destiny since 1947, it has made phenomenol progress in every area, on it's own terms. The spirit of the less fortunate people there is truly humbling. I'm looking forward to returning for another reality check soon.

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