Members motord Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 I'm curious to hear what role, if any, headphones play in everyone's mixing practice. Like alot of people, I do ITB mixes in the bedroom, with small powered nearfields (KRK's with 5.25" woofers), and a far from perfect monitoring environment. Given the limitation in low end response, I find myself using my 'phones to check the low end, and sometimes I use them to make E.Q. and level changes as well. It seems that the consensus among engineers is that mixing through headphones is a bad idea, resulting in poor mixes. Given that the frequency response of my cans (psychoacoustically, at least) is quite respectable, can anyone explain why it's such a bad idea? Thanks people. I love this forum, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 The way in which our ears interpret sounds from loudspeakers is very different to that from simple headphones. When we are mixing on monitors, the sound arrives at both ears, one slightly later than the other. You also hear the reflected sound. When we are listening with headphones, this does not occur. One ear cannot hear what the other ear hears, and so the decisions that you make based on headphones don't always translate properly to monitors. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with mixing on headphones, but you should not make your primary/final judgments and decisions on the headphones if at all possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 22, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 22, 2007 I agree with Ken 100%. But I usually spend half my time in 7506's. I need to hear my speakers but I've grown accustomed to using my phones a lot too. If I had to let one or the other go however, I'd have to let the phones go because as much as they let me hear the minutia they don't let me hear what it sounds like in a traditional acoustic environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 That's right. I think that one can grow accustomed to compensating for what I discussed earlier, but it's always good to get a "reality check" and make your final decisions with monitors. But some people can get surprisingly close if they have grown accustomed to mixing with headphones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members motord Posted January 22, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Thanks - these responses make sense. I have noticed that pan positions made in my cans sometimes don't translate over the monitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 I have noticed that pan positions made in my cans sometimes don't translate over the monitors. That's the other way round also.I just listened to a song I'm working on for the first time on headphones and it sounds totally different. Very cool thread! Now you have given me another thing to worry about. I allways felt my mixes sound pretty good on peoples stereos but what will they sound like on their Ipods??? Nice,...more work for me and more to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Very cool thread! Now you have given me another thing to worry about. I allways felt my mixes sound pretty good on peoples stereos but what will they sound like on their Ipods??? Mixes that translate well on monitors typically will translate well on headphones, from my experience. But sure, give it a listen on headphones anyway just to hear how iPod People (not the Pod People) are hearing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members therealwhere Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Monitoring on decent monitors (and your KRK's IMHO certainly qualify as decent) at low levels, provided the acoustic envornment isn't completely trash, will be far more accurate than headphones. As noted, the physcoacoustics of containment from headphones creates acoustical illusions that will not translate well to the real world. In addition, HP levels are dramatically deceiving, and extended use can lead to permanent hearing damage, even though the level feels comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 There's also the very unscientific reason that I don't like wearing headphones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarmonster Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 I do most of my work with cans. That being said, my final test is my boom-box, CD walkman and car stereo. It has to sound good on all those common systems before release, since that's how most people will really be hearing it. As you pointed out, I'm pretty familiar with the sound of my cans, so my ear knows how to compensate for the final product. Good thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurfu Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 In the mixing process: Headphones == microscope Monitors == big picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted January 22, 2007 Moderators Share Posted January 22, 2007 Another thing I've noticed about phones. It's very hard to get a balance sometimes. Everything might sound right in the phones, you bring it out to the speakers and "Whoa!. The snare is way out front from where you thought it was. Backgrounds are too soft, there's not enough verb... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 I'm curious to hear what role, if any, headphones play in everyone's mixing practice. Like alot of people, I do ITB mixes in the bedroom, with small powered nearfields (KRK's with 5.25" woofers), and a far from perfect monitoring environment. Given the limitation in low end response, I find myself using my 'phones to check the low end, and sometimes I use them to make E.Q. and level changes as well. It seems that the consensus among engineers is that mixing through headphones is a bad idea, resulting in poor mixes. Given that the frequency response of my cans (psychoacoustically, at least) is quite respectable, can anyone explain why it's such a bad idea? Thanks people. I love this forum, by the way. Don't Record, Mix or do anything else related to music with headphones!!! Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members therealwhere Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Another thing I've noticed about phones. It's very hard to get a balance sometimes. Everything might sound right in the phones, you bring it out to the speakers and "Whoa!. The snare is way out front from where you thought it was. Backgrounds are too soft, there's not enough verb... Yup, headphones are anything but a microscope, unless your micorscope is broken and proportionally distorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 I use headphones only for cue mixes when tracking, or to hear what the mic is hearing when moving mics around a drum kit. They are worse than useless for mixing - - somewhat like trying to read a sign a half mile away through your grandfathers trifocal glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Don't Record, Mix or do anything else related to music with headphones!!! That's right, even binaural dummy head recordings can be listened transaural over speakers with a crosstalk canceller isn't it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Let's not forget that headphone levels are difficult to gauge in regards to what is too loud, especially over time. Several studies have already suggested the increase in headphone use due to the popularity of Ipods may be causing numerous hearing problems in young people. This is because of duration as much or more so than the actual dB SPL itself. Now imagine the damage you can do in marathon mixing sessions. The best headphones for listening are closed ear-piece models that essentially isolate the airspace in your ear canal, causing your ears to compress quicker than equivalent SPL's in open air. That will certainly affect your ability to hear what's actually going on in you mix. And it won't disappear when you decide to compare the mix on your near or far field monitors because ear compression takes time to subside. It happens with monitors, too, but takes longer and is less severe than with headphones. Let's not forget those accidental, high power, painful noises that sometimes occur when something is out of whack. Bad enough to experience such sounds relatively open spaces, but funneling them to your eardrum while limiting the ability for pressure escape can easily pop your eardrum. I use headphones for many purposes, but I would never trust them for long term use in mixing. Any time I've attempted to use them for mixes the results have been awful on every other monitor system. When I use headphones I use MDR-7506's, and I use them because it is a necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Synonym Music Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 Another thing I've noticed about phones. It's very hard to get a balance sometimes. Everything might sound right in the phones, you bring it out to the speakers and "Whoa!. The snare is way out front from where you thought it was. Backgrounds are too soft, there's not enough verb... Absolutely. They're also deceptive on vox levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jonmatifa Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 I'm curious though, has anyone tried to make two impulses (one for the left, then right channel) with a dummy head at mix position in a good studio with good monitors, and use that as a binaural-monitor-translator, recreating the monitor cross-talk and ever so slight amount of room reverb present in a control room? I've thought about it, it seems like the logical thing to do IF you had no choice but to mix on headphones. A substitute for a good control room and monitors? No. Still not yet. But it would be interesting to see how close the experience could be recreated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ShakaCthulu Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 Use them like you would a crappy B set of monitors...just as a reference. Mixing on headphones is actually unhealthy, I've noticed my ears get fatigued faster and it's easy to lose track of how high you're jacking up the volume. It's a fast path to tinnitus. I really only use them as a reference or if I can't feasibly use the monitors (i.e. grouchy neighbors, sleeping girlfriend, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members meccajay Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 I don't "Mix" with headphones, but I CHECK all mixes with them. I've gotten into the habit of inspecting all mixes and recording sessions with phones: checking my pans and how they feel in there locations, musical errors on tracks, clicks & pops, samples accidently triggered, vocalists backround noise while singing, etc etc. You'll find most of these with good monitors. You'll find all of these with good headphones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 I hate wearing headphones. That said, if I'm working late and my girlfriend is sleeping, I'll go ahead and do editing and detail-oriented things like that on headphones so I can keep a project moving. I don't make any final decisions on it, but for editing especially, they can be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ani Posted January 24, 2007 Members Share Posted January 24, 2007 Don't Record, Mix or do anything else related to music with headphones!!! Bruce Swedien Bruce, I find your reply curious. As a vocalist, I use noise cancelling headphones to listen to the music while I record my vocals in isolation. I find this to be especially critical when recording backup vocals. I've always felt that if I can hear the music playing in the background while recording vox, it becomes more and more difficult to line up vox tracks. This is especially true in the event any time stretching is needed to blend the mix. Do you have an alternative that will achieve sound isolation for the vocalist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ShakaCthulu Posted January 24, 2007 Members Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ani Difranco? Your music rules. I must admit I've copped a drum loop here or there, but I do chop it up or alter it. Difranco percussion tracks own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BLAblablah Posted January 24, 2007 Members Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ani Difranco? err...wrong Ani Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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