Members ZenFly Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 I was just watching the latest video by Sugarland on CMT and enjoying the song...I've been a fan of Jennifer Nettle's voice since seeing her on "Crossroads" with Bon Jovi... THen at the end...right before she goes for the last sustained "Life" note...a very obvious interval ...keyboard effect ...sample/autotune/edit what ever...AHHHHHGGGH. I do not understand why the producers of such an amazing talent feel the need to robotize her. I just needed to vent this. rant over/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 I was just watching the latest video by Sugarland on CMT and enjoying the song...I've been a fan of Jennifer Nettle's voice since seeing her on "Crossroads" with Bon Jovi...THen at the end...right before she goes for the last sustained "Life" note...a very obvious interval ...keyboard effect ...sample/autotune/edit what ever...AHHHHHGGGH. I do not understand why the producers of such an amazing talent feel the need to robotize her. I just needed to vent this. rant over/ Oh, dear god, I think she is one of the most horribly cornpone-affected (and apparently effected according to your post) singers, out there.Nails-on-a-chalkboard annoying, IMO...the first time I heard her singing "...luuv yore baybee guurrrrllll", I was stunned that they'd let something that awful on the radio.Then again, 95% of current country radio is awful, anyway.They probably auto-tuned her because she has pitch problems.They opened for John Anderson, just as their record was coming out, and my wife and some of her friends went to the show. My wife is not musically inclined, by any means, but she told me that Ms. Nettles' vocals were consistently flat through out the entire show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZenFly Posted February 9, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 Well cornpone accent aside, she has major pipes and based on the show I saw (Crossroads) can do it on her own live. So you don't like her. Fine, but the issue here is the effect.so pick another singer Perhaps Allison Krauss? Joss Stone? Babs? male or female it seems to be everywhere especially in 'country'. If you can hit the notes, why use the effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 You know, I rarely say anything like this because any tool can be useful in the right hands and in the right situation... but Autotune really just needs to go away. It really does. It is not necessary for good singers (and in fact it totally squashes their expressiveness), it makes mediocre singers sound like they can really sing when they can't, they are pretty much NEVER appropriate in a live gig setting, and there are ridiculously few engineers who have any clue how to use them correctly. Ergo, we all suffer. We all did just fine before Autotune ever existed. It should just cease to exist right now, and if I ran the world, it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Magpel Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 We've been down this road so many times, but for good reasons... Yeah, "hearing autotune" is always a big scandal in our little circle, esp. live. I mean, I'm convinved that Anthony Keides, whom I like, is an autotune poster child, though I also believe that he's worked really hard on his singing, and the autotune is like that final shot of steroids...oops, wrong analogy for Anthony...but live, it is is clear he ain't using autotune, so props for that...or maybe now there is a dedicated autotune operator live who has been instructed to let just enough clams slip through to convince us it's "real."...you know, these are kinds of doubts and paranoias our parents and grandparents never had to feel. As with photoshop. Photo ducmentation used to be, epsitemologically speaking, as good as truth. Now it's as malleable as the imagination. But, as I have said before, I find rhythm-fixing and PT slicing and dicing a far more disturbing and dangerous trend than autotune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members axe2 2001 Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 How bout Rascal Flatts?? These guys are top notch musicians and vocalists. On thier latest I think the AT is set on STUN!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 But, as I have said before, I find rhythm-fixing and PT slicing and dicing a far more disturbing and dangerous trend than autotune. Well, me too - don't even get me started. But I can also see a lot of legitimate artistic uses for non linear editing, even if I don't do much of it myself. I think what people do with it is usually pretty evil , but I do hear it used for good, and there are entire artforms that a lot of people like, that wouldn't exist without it. And at least you can't slice n dice at a live show! But I can't see ANY legitimate reason for Autotune. Really. There's nothing it does that couldn't be better achieved some other way. All it does is encourage laziness, reward mediocrity and squash legitimate talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gtrbass Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 ... But I can't see ANY legitimate reason for Autotune. Really. There's nothing it does that couldn't be better achieved some other way. All it does is encourage laziness, reward mediocrity and squash legitimate talent. Isn't that true of just about anything in digital audio? A useful tool, when it is abused, will enable the truly lousy to appear mediocre. It becomes a nice shiny turd. I still think intonation algorithms (autotune, melodyne, etc.) are useful tools when used appropriately. The less is more approach can make the results unobtrusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 Isn't that true of just about anything in digital audio? A useful tool, when it is abused, will enable the truly lousy to appear mediocre. Sure, as I mentioned, that IS the case with most of this stuff. But... I still think intonation algorithms (autotune, melodyne, etc.) are useful tools when used appropriately. The less is more approach can make the results unobtrusive. Yes of course. I just think the ratio of usefulness to pitfalls is not near enough, unlike with some other tools. As much as we hate the abuse of over-editing, sound replacement, hypercompression, etc. - if digital editing, brickwall limiters and sample libraries went away tomorrow I think there would be a net loss artistically, because a lot of people do use those tools in cool and creative ways even if I don't personally like all of them. But if Autotune went away nothing would really change for the worse... people would deal with intonation problems the way we always did before Autotune, which is no big deal. Whereas there would be loads of change for the better, as already enumerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Magpel Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 Well, me too - don't even get me started. But I can also see a lot of legitimate artistic uses for non linear editing, even if I don't do much of it myself. I think what people do with it is usually pretty evil , but I do hear it used for good, and there are entire artforms that a lot of people like, that wouldn't exist without it. And at least you can't slice n dice at a live show! But I can't see ANY legitimate reason for Autotune. Really. There's nothing it does that couldn't be better achieved some other way. All it does is encourage laziness, reward mediocrity and squash legitimate talent. Yes, very good point. My point--and I know you agree not because of an intuitive simpatico but because we've had exactly this discussion before -- is that time fixing has a far more deleterious and far-reaching effect on the general aesthetics and expectations of the listenership, not because it makes people less tolerant of imperfection, but because it makes them less alert and sensitive to the time and feel negotiations that are going on in great ensemble playing. But you are abolsutely right that digital editing has enabled and inpsired legitimate art forms that have nothing to do with ensemble playing. I'm sure autotune could be said to have the same levelling effect; it just seems so much less significant to me than the issue of feel in the digital age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 I'm sure autotune could be said to have the same levelling effect; it just seems so much less significant to me than the issue of feel in the digital age. I'm not really sure which effect is worse, over-editing or AutoTune. They're almost two sides of the same coin. Depends on the extent the (ab)user chooses to (ab)use them. Whatever it is, I wouldn't wanna live on the difference!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 What do you think about the new plugin Autocharisma? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 Yes, very good point. My point--and I know you agree not because of an intuitive simpatico but because we've had exactly this discussion before -- is that time fixing has a far more deleterious and far-reaching effect on the general aesthetics and expectations of the listenership, not because it makes people less tolerant of imperfection, but because it makes them less alert and sensitive to the time and feel negotiations that are going on in great ensemble playing. Oh definitely, on a personal level I absolutely agree with you. I'd 10 times rather hear a totally live band that wasn't cut to a click and the feel hasn't been screwed with, and an Autotuned vocal, than the other way around. Unfortunately the two usually go hand in hand. But you are abolsutely right that digital editing has enabled and inpsired legitimate art forms that have nothing to do with ensemble playing. Yes. If I were world dictator I wouldn't have the heart to destroy that. But Autotune, hell yes, I would in a second! I'm sure autotune could be said to have the same levelling effect; it just seems so much less significant to me than the issue of feel in the digital age. Like I say, I agree... but I do realize that I (and maybe you) relate to music via the rhythm more than anything, whereas I'd say the vast majority of listeners tune in to the vocals first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 What do you think about the new plugin Autocharisma? Yeah, some people try to compensate using Autocharisma or Autotalent after they've already turned up the Suck knob to 11. That never seems to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 well, then you still have the optione SuckGoAway.dll, or when nothing helps InstantKarma.dll . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Magpel Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 What do you think about the new plugin Autocharisma?. The look-ahead feature has helped me dodge more than a few rotten tomatoes; that was good. But I find that, contrary to the marketing literature, "era" and "culture" are not acurately modeled at all. The "High-Gain" models are passable but tend not to play very well in, say, a coffee house setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 Ohh, what we may need is a plug with an implemented artifical personality modeled after producers who have strong opinions, a plug who says over the computer speaker after the first couple of notes: "this lady can't sing, you are not interested to work with her" ,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 About plugins,.. sometimes I'm in need of a DeSwisser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MDLMUSIC Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 When my last band (which has since broken up) was recording our CD, the drummer, who usually sang lead on two of the songs when we performed live, just couldn't hit the notes. He asked the producer (who was also the bass player) if he had some kind of autotune device. Well, he didn't, so we went to plan B. I sang the drummer's part (uncredited) and also layered my harmony part behind it. In fact, on one song, the sax player, who also sang the bass harmony, was having trouble hitting his notes, so I sang his part, too. When I play the CD and someone compliments me on the tight 4-part harmony voices on our cover of the Del-Vikings "Come Go With Me", I have to hold myself back from saying, "Oh, you mean the bass player and me and me and me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 I sang the drummer's part (uncredited) and also layered my harmony part behind it. So you were sort of a Vocal Drumagog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 About plugins,.. sometimes I'm in need of a DeSwisser. DeYodel is easy, EnYodel almost impossible . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted February 9, 2007 Members Share Posted February 9, 2007 When I play the CD and someone compliments me on the tight 4-part harmony voices on our cover of the Del-Vikings "Come Go With Me", I have to hold myself back from saying, "Oh, you mean the bass player and me and me and me?" LOL... well that kind of thing has happened more often than anybody cares to admit. In fact there've been times when I was just the engineer and ended up playing or singing a part that somebody couldn't hack, apart from seeing people get a bandmate to do it or hire a session player. But I'd still rather hear that than Autotune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted February 10, 2007 Members Share Posted February 10, 2007 Yeah--I don't fully get Autotune myself. I mean, I suppose it's a time and money saver when the clock is ticking in the studio, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of engineers that know how to use it. Isn't the whole point of Autotune so that no one can tell anything's been done? Or do a lot of engineers use the effect purposely to create a "modern" sounding record? Beats me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted February 10, 2007 Members Share Posted February 10, 2007 Yeah--I don't fully get Autotune myself. I mean, I suppose it's a time and money saver when the clock is ticking in the studio, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of engineers that know how to use it. And the thing is, if you use it "properly" (meaning just to correct a few notes and not set to Auto-Stun) it takes about as much time as doing another take. If somebody can actually sing they can punch in a line or two where the pitch is a little off. And if they can't sing they have no business being in a studio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted February 10, 2007 Members Share Posted February 10, 2007 well, then you still have the optione SuckGoAway.dll, or when nothing helps InstantKarma.dll. Are those available as DX plug-ins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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