Perfect Pitch - can you learn it?

[chrisgil]

Anyone tried the perfect ear training things

i.e - http://www.perfectpitch.com/home.htm

 

or has anyone learnt perfect pitch for themselves?

[philbo]

Well, I can't hear an Eb7sus4maj9-5 and tell you what it is off the top of my head, but I can tell by ear whether a song sucks. Does that count?

 

There are actually a few different abilities here, some of which can be learned.

 

- Interval recognition, even for extreme intervals. -- learnable

 

- The timbres & harmonics of the most common 1st position guitar chords can be recognized well enough that one can write the chord names out while listening in real time. -- learnable

 

- The absolute pitch of a note can be recognized and named immediately. (I assume this is the one you mean)

If it can be learned, I sure don't know how to do it. Some people have the right type of synaestesia so they perceive pitches as colors or other similar cross-wiring, so for example, if the note is 'brown'-feeling, it's a Bb. I have a synaestesia, but it involves visually perceiving other (non-audio) things, so no help there. -- not learnable (so far. I've been trying for 42 years now; I may get it yet )

 

 

I've often wondered - - what if a guitar is tuned down by, say, 46 cents from normal? Do people with perfect pitch recognize that? How precise are their abilities? Can they beat a $30 guitar tuner in accuracy? Because I think it might drive me a bit crazy to hear the very slight intonation variations in an instrument as being 'out of tune'. Anybody with perfect pitch want to chime in & tell me what you think?

[John Sayers]

I've got relative pitch and that's annoying enough, perfect pitch would drive me crazy as it does those who have it.

[Straycatstrat]

You might be able to learn something similar to an absolute pitch (which is something you don't wish to have to its full extent of feeling pain when a record runs slightly slower/faster) but I doubt that a product on such a site that seems to target the layman's misconception about perfect ear can achieve this. There is no real need to have (absolute) perfect pitch (IMHO) as this site claims. A relative perfect pitch is way more useful and easier to achieve by classic ear training lessons. Anyway, when I was professionally confronted with tune and pitch all day, I developed the ability to name a random note and lost most of that ability again later.

[philbo]

 

Anyway, when I was professionally confronted with tune and pitch all day, I developed the ability to name a random note and lost most of that ability again later.

 

 

Well, this would indicate that is perhaps is learnable. But maybe not necessarily desirable?

[Straycatstrat]

Well, this would indicate that is perhaps is learnable. But maybe not necessarily desirable?

 

It may be desirable if you compose and write sheet music without having an instrument at hand or stringing up a guitar without a tuner. I can't think of another situation where it's really of any value apart from impressing people at a party

 

But how I understood that, this trained sort of "absolute" pitch is different to have a real one. When I play an 'A' on a guitar, I will remember that pitch for some time and can relate other keys to it for some time. When you work in a studio or play guitar all day, some reference pitches will "burn in" somewhat deeper, they will last longer in your memory. Recognition is done by a conscious comparison process if you will. A 'real' absolute pitch doesn't need this "memory refresh", is not deduced from a single reference key and can't be learned either.

 

I've often wondered - - what if a guitar is tuned down by, say, 46 cents from normal? Do people with perfect pitch recognize that? How precise are their abilities?

 

I've heard from people with an absolute pitch that they actually hear when their instrument (or a recording) is slightly off (comparable to the resolution of a $30 guitar tuner) and it actually hurts them.

[Tedster]

[Straycatstrat]

LOL

 

Was that absolute or relative?

[Phil O'Keefe]

I was born with it. I have no idea if you can "learn it" or not. For me, it's not colors... it's more like a photographic memory thing ("audiographic memory"? ); once I hear something, I can recall it fairly easily. Mention a Beatles song, and a tape deck (analog 1" Studer @ 15 IPS ) goes off in my head and starts playing back the recording. In the original key. It's like I can "hear" the song - the actual recording - playing back in my mind.

 

I could mentally "hear" the recorded key of popular songs in my head, even if I hadn't heard them for days, and recall / sing them in the original key at will, even when I was a little kid. It wasn't until Jr High school band that I learned the "names" of notes (Bb, F#, etc.) and could associate "names" with the pitches - that part had to be "learned", but the "hearing / recalling of the pitches" thing is something that I've always just naturally been able to do.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I can't think of another situation where it's really of any value apart from impressing people at a party

 

Oh it's a HUGE advantage IMHO. The "party trick" aspect is annoying and gets old fast... but there's plenty of upsides. I know when you're out of tune, or in tune. I know which string on the guitar should be checked (plenty of my clients have heard me say something like "check your D string tuning please... it's a little flat"). It's great for being able to "figure out songs by ear". I can tune a guitar without a tuner. If I have a slightly flat, but consistently flat single note on a track, I can open pitch shift in PT and enter the value in cents to get the note to pitch, hit enter, and never have to bother with opening Autotune.

 

Heck, I have short, stubby fingers, and really don't have some of the physical tools to be a great musician. Had it not been for perfect pitch and my love of music, I doubt I ever would have gotten involved with it at all - no one else in my family did.

[claveslave]

Mention a Beatles song, and a tape deck (analog 1" Studer @ 15 IPS ) goes off in my head and starts playing back the recording. In the original key. It's like I can "hear" the song - the actual recording - playing back in my mind.

 

"Strawberry Fields" must mess with your sensibilities, then.

[Jon Gnash]

 

I was born with it.

Can you ride a bicycle?

 

Can you explain how to balance yourself on a bicycle?

 

If you can

[Kerouac]

One of my friends is"extremely sensitive" to things that are even slightly out of tune because he "has perfect pitch." I like to tune his guitar with each string off just a couple of cents and then play really dissonant music... he LITERALLY flinches.

 

Now, this guy also tried to get into a fist fight with me over a disagreement about The Beatles song "In My Life." He was willing to fight me over the Bm I was playing in it, insisting that it was a B Major, and that the Major Third was in the bass, and that why I was hearing it wrong. We played it back to back and everyone there agreed with me that my version was right, and that's when threats of bodily harm came out. I went home, looked it up in my Beatles scores book, and it's actually a B5, with a root note in the bass. When I called to apologize he still made a big deal about it. C'mon, man... we were both wrong and I made an overture to lay it to rest and you're giving me {censored}? Hasn't returned a call, come to a gig, or said anything since then. I've known him for 20 years (first day of Kindergarten) so it sucks he's acting like this and won't talk to any of his friends anymore.

 

Maybe I shouldn't have been playing dissonance for him....

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

Can you ride a bicycle?   Can you explain how to balance yourself on a bicycle?   If you can

[Phil O'Keefe]

BTW, I'm not saying that it can or can't be learned. All I can do is relate my own experiences. As I said, I had to "learn" what the corresponding names for the pitches were... for example, Yesterday is in the key of F, and I had no idea what an "F" was when I was six years old... but I could recall an "F" and sing it to you, singing the song in the "correct" key, at that age. And it's not based on "getting to know the sound of a guitar" - Yesterday was tuned down a whole step and played in open G chord positions, and I didn't start playing guitar until high school.

 

Learning what intervals were called (major thirds, perfect fifths, etc.) was something else I had to "learn" - but again, I'm talking about names to things as opposed to the pitches themselves.

 

I can name any pitch played on a piano or guitar easily. Name a pitch, and I can "birdcage" my Peterson strobe tuner without looking at it (given some modest allowances for my weaknesses as a singer ) with my voice. I'm good with chords and inversions and so forth. But I seriously doubt that I could do what you do and name every note played, and those NOT played if several people cracked down several random notes each on a piano simultaneously. The madness of that many crashing overtones would be pretty difficult to cut through.

 

If you can do that, then you should have no problem deciding one of the age old questions: Name the chord at the beginning of "A Hard Day's Night".

[Phil O'Keefe]

"Strawberry Fields" must mess with your sensibilities, then.

 

No not at all... but I can certainly hear the edit point.

 

I've done recordings where we intentionally put song keys "in the cracks" - you know, say 50 cents sharp or flat. One example would be a song on my buddy John McGill's second album. Sometimes I'll be listening to the CD and forget about it, and the second it comes on, it's a momentary ear tweak :poke: but it only takes an instant to mentally "deal with it".

 

I'm not as bothered by minor pitch issues as much as some people reportedly are.

 

OTOH, would you please check the tuning on that B string?

[Kerouac]

If you can do that, then you should have no problem deciding one of the age old questions: Name the chord at the beginning of "A Hard Day's Night".

 

I may be wrong (and I suppose I could go down to the Academy and look it up but it's 3:18a, so I don't think so) but isn't it split on two guitars? The notes are GDGBDG (3 fret Major Barre Chord) and I thought the "top" was played on first through 4th strings and is something like DGCG.

 

Gsus4? It doesn't sound like the bass is playing the root, but my hearing may be just as bad as my aforementioned friends. Still that's my vote. Gsus4 with an inverted bass note?

[philbo]

BTW, I'm not saying that it can or can't be learned. All I can do is relate my own experiences. As I said, I had to "learn" what the corresponding names for the pitches were... for example, Yesterday is in the key of F, and I had no idea what an "F" was when I was six years old... but I could recall an "F" and sing it to you, singing the song in the "correct" key, at that age. And it's not based on "getting to know the sound of a guitar" - Yesterday was tuned down a whole step and played in open G chord positions, and I didn't start playing guitar until high school. Learning what intervals were called (major thirds, perfect fifths, etc.) was something else I had to "learn" - but again, I'm talking about names to things as opposed to the pitches themselves. I can name any pitch played on a piano or guitar easily. Name a pitch, and I can "birdcage" my Peterson strobe tuner without looking at it (given some modest allowances for my weaknesses as a singer ) with my voice. I'm good with chords and inversions and so forth. But I seriously doubt that I could do what you do and name every note played, and those NOT played if several people cracked down several random notes each on a piano simultaneously. The madness of that many crashing overtones would be pretty difficult to cut through. If you can do that, then you should have no problem deciding one of the age old questions: Name the chord at the beginning of "A Hard Day's Night".

 

Well, my band plays it with 2 chords at once. I do a G7sus4 at 3rd position, and GGM does an Fadd9 in 1st position. Which, I suppose, if you add it all up, is a G7sus4add9... or maybe a F6add9/G, I guess. Potato, patato..

[Jon Gnash]

Sorry, I can't remember the damn Beatles cord.

 

Turntables and cassette decks used to drive me crazy if they were slightly off.

 

Which reminds me

[Jon Gnash]

I'm good with chords and inversions and so forth. But I seriously doubt that I could do what you do and name every note played, and those NOT played if several people cracked down several random notes each on a piano simultaneously. The madness of that many crashing overtones would be pretty difficult to cut through.

I

[Straycatstrat]

I can name any pitch played on a piano or guitar easily. Name a pitch, and I can "birdcage" my Peterson strobe tuner without looking at it (given some modest allowances for my weaknesses as a singer ) with my voice.

 

That's absolute pitch. But like I said, most benefits/practical effects come from the "relative" part. Interestingly, a person can have absolute pitch and a bad (undeveloped) relative hearing at the same time. The common misconception is that both are the same thing and/or that absolute pitch is why some musicians are so great. Even relative pitch is overrated in the explanation of musical capabilities: I know musicians that play my ass off and make me cry by playing the most beautiful lines- after I tuned their instrument.

[rasputin1963]

Perfect pitch here. A ceiling fan's hum, a car's honk, an elevator's bell, a fork on a champagne glass--- all are notes to me.

 

And I say Yes.... one can learn perfect pitch.

 

Your psycho-musicologists all maintain that music is a learned trait anyway... it's all cultural.

 

We learn the conventions--- the expectations, if you will-- of music before we can speak.

[philbo]

 

Sorry, I can't remember the damn Beatles cord.   Turntables and cassette decks used to drive me crazy if they were slightly off.   Which reminds me

[philbo]

Perfect pitch here. A ceiling fan's hum, a car's honk, an elevator's bell, a fork on a champagne glass--- all are notes to me. And I say Yes.... one can learn perfect pitch. Your psycho-musicologists all maintain that music is a learned trait anyway... it's all cultural. We learn the conventions--- the expectations, if you will-- of music before we can speak.

 

yeah, that's one thing that puzzled me - - why would somebody be born already wired to detect absolute pitches in only 12-tone equal temperament, as opposed to the other infinite variety of combinations of notes/octave and temperaments that are possible?

 

The odds of being born like that must be infinitesimally small. This leads me to speculate that the ability is learnable, at least as a child. Possibly as an adult, too. Which would also point toward me being a slow learner, since I haven't picked it up in all those decades....

[crossways]

Wow, haven't heard this discussion since college days. I have degrees in instrumental and vocal music education, and in our Ear Training classes this discussion used to come up regularly.

 

I say that Perfect Pitch is an ability that you are born with, you can not learn it.

 

My definition of Perfect Pitch is INSTANT recognition of a note and multiple notes played on any instrument for any duration.

 

To me perfect pitch is like seeing a color. As soon as I see a blue square I instantly know that it's blue, with perfect pitch I would go further with the analogy and say that you also instantly recognize that it is royal blue.

 

I DO NOT HAVE PERFECT PITCH

 

I did have a professor who did. He could name a note instantly and name note clusters.

 

Some of my fellow students had GREAT ears. One older guy (a guitarist with lots of years playing in classic rock bands) had the best. He could ID sonorities (maj, min dim, 7th, 9ths etc.) like he was flavor testing ice cream.

Another guy (a french horn player) could hear notes played on brass instruments and on some pianos and subtract the 5th and guess correctly 90% of the time.

 

If I can vocalize a note I can usually be within a 2nd of the absolute pitch if not dead on.

 

To me all of that is memorized ability. Playing music for a cretain amount of time, the same notes, sounds, etc. I call that Pitch Memorization.

 

Relative Pitch is also a memorized or learned thing. If I am given a key/tonal center then there are definate characteristics within the relationship of the notes and sonoraties of that key that are fairly easy to learn. If I am playing a lot and practicing those skills I am sharper at it than other times. But that is generally true for any learned skills.

 

 

Bottom Line for Me:

I think that guys who are really on top of the pitch memorization and really in good practice with regards to keeping their ear training (relative pitch) sharp can be nearly as spot on as guys that are born with perfect pitch.

 

But someone born with Perfec Pitch (Phil correct me if I am wrong) can peg a note instantly even after a break from listening and playing. When you meet someone with that ability you really can see a night and day difference.

 

FWIW:

A buddy of mine bought the training tapes that are always in the magazines. I forget the name of the guy. But it all centers on pitch memorization and relative pitch training.