Jump to content

Are you a fan of ribbon mics?


Recommended Posts

  • Members

It seems that there are just some people who really love ribbon mics.

 

Are you one of them? Is a ribbon mic the darling of your studio?

 

What's the first thing you notice about a signal through a ribbon mic? Is it apparent to a layperson, too, if he's told what to listen for?

 

Are they indeed as fragile as they say, and prone to mechanical failures or bad ribbon tension? Does the fragility of them make them a pain-in-the-keester to own and operate?

 

It is said that the signal from a fine ribbon mic scarcely needs any EQ. True?

 

What's the finest ribbon you know of?

 

Your ribbon lore--convictions--anecdotes---excoriations---encomiums?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Use the search feature. This has been written about all over the web.

 

Well, DERR! :rolleyes: I just wanted to get some up close 'n' personal information from the regulars here because I've come to appreciate their insights and pedigree (and style and humor).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

The naturalness of the sound. Ribbons seem to capture the sound of the instrument as your ears hear the instrument in the room, less room reflection more instrument. Secondly, the figure 8 pattern rejection has it's uses.

 

For picking up guitar cabs close up, both the Naked Eye or Royer 121 which I own, they do it better for me than the standard SM57 or MD 421.

 

For drums as room mics, I prefer them to LDCs.

 

You can use them in a Blumlein pattern a sound I like for for room mics on drums.

 

MS recording patterns can also be achieved with ribbon mics for mono/stereo compatability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

to me, the only comparison i can think of is this: on a guitar cab (where i find ribbon mics shine) a dynamic mic sounds like a closed back cab, and a ribbon mic sounds like an open back. it sounds spacious and almost too big for being only one mic. I still do eq my ribbon, but its a cheap chinese one so i haven't been working with high end stuff here. ribbons make a great addition to a mic closet and work best on guitar cab like i said, and vocals for a more "vintage" sound. they also work wonders as a room mic on drum kits. just throw one up a few feet back, compress the hell out of it, and your good to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

There are a lot of opinions written though some are about old school type ribbons. But things have improved:

 

The sound of a ribbon mic is often described as transparent, uncongested, pure and "analog". The spatial characteristics of a figure 8 pattern plus the tone produce a smoother treble that in today's world of digital converters, compression and transmission, translate into a sound more reminiscent of analog recording while still preserving excellent definition.

 

New ribbon mics employing nanomaterials are stronger and have higher full bandwidth spl ratings, and are at least as rugged as any stage dynamic or condenser mic. They can be used outside, on stage, in kick drums, and for field recording and industrial purposes.

 

Ribbon mics have taken the lead on many jobs because of the sound qualities they produce. The ribbon shape vs the tympanic membrane is a primary reason. Tympanic membranes have a tendency to support more overtone modes than the linear ribbon structure, and they entrap air, which can become turbulent at high spls, and produce noise. Ribbons do not have this characteristic. The motion of resonant structures has been described by the scientist Chladni and is worth googling for.

 

Older ribbon mics could be damaged in some instances by phantom power. This fear has been eliminated in recent years with strong nanomaterials that are not susceptible to electrical damage.

 

Another factor is the output levels of modern ribbons which often produce signals at least as hot as a stage dynamic such as an SM-58. That means that virtually any preamp can be used.

 

People used to think ribbons sounded dark and rolled off. This is no longer the case with some ribbon mics that have rising responses that can be optimal for vocal use.

 

Ribbon microphones are the one real growth area in microphones. Other growth areas are shotguns as TV production is growing, and wireless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Rolled off" = gradually decreasing response in the high frequencies - the higher the frequency, the less the mike would capture it. That was typical of some older ribbon designs, such as the RCA 74b ("Junior Velocity"), which didn't have much going on above about 10 or 12 kHz.

 

Ribbons have some great attributes, and I agree that they're outstanding mikes to use with modern digital recording gear. In particular, their transient response - their ability to capture the initial note attack - (without the sometimes over-bright / over-hyped sound you can get with condenser mikes) is one of their best attributes IMHO. I don't like / use them on everything, but I do use them for a lot of things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

I don't have much experience with ribbons, just have one, a Royer 121. I didn't like it on anything at first (too metallic sounding), but a fellow OJ'er told me the 121 gets a better sound using the back end and he was certainly right.

 

So now I sometimes use a 121 on guitar amps, though I just as often go with a Senn E609. Not sure a Royer 121 is worth $1,000, but maybe I just haven't found the magic in it yet.

 

Terry D.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I love a lot of ribbon mics, but unlike a lot of people I can't say that I like the Royers all that much. I love Beyer M160's, Coles 4038 and of course old RCA ribbon mics, although I don't own one. I don't find my M160's a maintenance nightmare at all, they are pretty robust so far as I've experienced. Some of the other vintage ribbons are indeed pretty fragile.

 

I agree with what Phil and some of the others have said... ribbons are great for digital recording because they really smooth out transients nicely, providing a bit of natural compression. They're great on drums for that reason. They are also wonderful for violins if you have to close mic them, as most condensers make violins sound entirely too brittle on a digital recording... they're fantastic on sax and other horns too. Like alcohol said, very natural sounding. And yes I think it would be noticable to most anyone if you compared it directly with say an LDC.

 

I don't know if I'd call ribbons "the darling of my studio" but yes I'm a big fan of them, and I certainly wouldn't want to be without one or two. The finest ribbon I know of? Shoot, I don't know... they really all do sound kind of different from each other so it just depends what you want. It's hard to beat an old RCA 77 or 44 on a female vocal, really. But 4038's on drums are divine, and M160's as mentioned really shine on horns and violins... so many great mics, so little money. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

I love the mic that works best, whatever it is. This weekend, I replaced KM-184s with M-160s on an old time banjo. The Neumanns brought out more "snap" than the banjo or the music called for, but the Beyers were just right.

 

I don't claim that they were right because they were ribbon mics, but rather they were right because they got the right sound this time. It's nice to have more than one mic. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Ever a slave to the zeitgeist, I picked up a used Cascade Fathead for practically nothing. I like it quite a lot, but I really wish I had two. So far, I've used it as a single drum overhead, on elec guit cabs and--much to my surprise very effectively--on a strummed acoustic guitar part.

 

I don't have much to offer in term of specific impressions; it is "darker" than most condensers, but then my other recent used mic acquisitions inlclude two beloved dynamics--an RE 20 and an SM7B--so I am generally living in a darker universe these days and I like it there...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've got a few ribbons - an old Shure, an old E/V, a couple of old RCA's, a Beyer M160... and I'm currently reviewing a pair of Groove Tubes Velo-8's - love 'em all... but for different things. The RCA's are by far the most "rolled off", the Beyer is my "go to" for sax (would LOVE to have a second one for drum OH use; it also rahques most triumphantly on guitar cabs), and the GT's... well, you'll have to wait a bit for my thoughts on those. ;)

 

I also have a bunch of dynamic mikes and condenser mikes too. To me, mikes for an engineer are like lenses to a photographer - they're what we "view the world" through... and just as a photographer wouldn't want to use a macro or fisheye or telephoto for everything, when you NEED a macro or fisheye or telephoto, nothing else is really going to do... so having a variety of good (and also cruddy!) mikes is a "good thing" IMHO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

We were playing around recording some classical guitar a few days ago and i recorded one take of the lady with 2 Neumann KM56's in MS and one in MS with the stereo AEA R88 ribbon mike.

You can hear the qualities of the condensers against the ribbons quite well with these examples. I think they got messed with a tiny bit, like some subtractive eq and maybe a touch of highs added and some tape saturation but you can get the idea still, they were just tests runs.

 

 

Ribbons- R88

Condensers- km56s

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

We were playing around recording some classical guitar a few days ago and i recorded one take of the lady with 2 Neumann KM56's in MS and one in MS with the stereo AEA R88 ribbon mike.

You can hear the qualities of the condensers against the ribbons quite well with these examples. I think they got messed with a tiny bit, like some subtractive eq and maybe a touch of highs added and some tape saturation but you can get the idea still, they were just tests.

 

 

 

Yes, I hear the difference very clearly. Some fine playin', too.

 

I think, in this particular case, one's choice would depend on whether you wanted the guitar to be an upfront solo instrument.... or a warm part of the mix, more to be "felt" than heard... No?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I own more than 50 microphones and many of them are older than 40 years. I get quite some jazzbands and I always use two mics for the trompet, trombone and reed players. A tube LDC and a Beyer M260 (the old one without the hi pass). Standard I use a Neumann M149 for clarinet/saxophone together with the M260 and most of the time the M260 is used in the mix.

 

Depends on the player though, some clarinet players sound very edgy and sharp and that's where the ribbon can do it's exellent job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

In the past, I have relied on a pair of 414s in Blumlien to capture drum room ambiance. They've always sounded great but required some taming of the highs and a bit of squashing. Great natural snare verb. My last project I enlist a new pair of Fathead IIs with the Blumlien bar. At first I didn't like it. But come mix time... I didn't have to do anything to the signal. It sounded right as is.

 

On an great sounding AC30, I put up a single Fathead and a 57, both capsules aligned about 2" off the grill. The 57 never made the mix. The Fathead got the sound I wanted. I didn't like even a little 57 blended in. For this particular sound.

 

However... on a quick idea in the control room (which is admittedly a bit noisy with computer fans) the figure 8 pattern was unusable. We were trying to get a Nashville tuned figerpicking part. Quick idea, let's do it. I've got to recut. It's noisy as hell. With an Octava 012 or a 414 it's not an issue.

 

So you've got to watch the pattern a bit. But other than that experience, I'm sold. A pair of ribbons fit a nice niche in my work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

We were playing around recording some classical guitar a few days ago and i recorded one take of the lady with 2 Neumann KM56's in MS and one in MS with the stereo AEA R88 ribbon mike.

You can hear the qualities of the condensers against the ribbons quite well with these examples. I think they got messed with a tiny bit, like some subtractive eq and maybe a touch of highs added and some tape saturation but you can get the idea still, they were just tests runs.



Ribbons- R88

Condensers- km56s

 

Wow, that's a dramatic difference. Not even ready to make a value judgment -- the ribbon seduces with its richness and body, but there's something very articulate about the neumann take.

 

Thanks for that! Good example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

 

Wow, that's a dramatic difference. Not even ready to make a value judgment -- the ribbon seduces with its richness and body, but there's something very articulate about the neumann take.


Thanks for that! Good example.

 

 

I have a similar reaction to the recordings. And... it really points out how context and direction make the call whether or not to use a ribbon. Both sound nice. One has a realistic quality, the other, hyper real. I liked both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Something to take into consideration is what kind of preamp you're plugging a ribbon into. When I first got my Cascade Fathead (original), I plugged it into an Edirol FA-66, a Behringer BCA2000, and some M-Audio thing (don't remember which).

 

It sounded like crap through all of them. Dull and lifeless.

 

At first I thought "well, I guess that's what these cheap Chinese things are all about". But then I plugged it into my Rane DMS22 preamp, and the thing just LIT UP! All of a sudden the ugly duckling turn into a gorgeous swan! I was floored. The thing sounded fantastic!

 

I have to assume that it must have some to do with impedance matching. Some preamps are better at it than others (in general, but especially when it comes to ribbons). I'll also assume that most preamps today, especially those you find in the likes of the above-mentioned and similar products, are expecting a condenser, and that's what they're optimized for. If the ribbon mic is sounding "dark" as someone here said, try a different preamp. Rent or bum something, anything. Chances are pretty good sooner or later it's going to just transform itself into something you never imagine it could be, an incredible-sounding mic.

 

It doesn't have to be a high-end preamp either. It just has to be one that just happens to match with the mic. While I'm sure any ribbon will sound great through the likes of a John Hardy, it doesn't necessarily have to be one to get a great sound out of your ribbon, no matter who makes the mic. Experiment!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Great thread :thu:

Thanks to all of you for some good info! I have been thinking of adding one or two of the less expensive ribbons to my mic locker. After reading this thread I beleive that I will keep my eyes open for a bargin.

Thanks again to all .

richard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Something to take into consideration is what kind of preamp you're plugging a ribbon into.


It doesn't have to be a high-end preamp either. It just has to be one that just happens to match with the mic.

I think most importantly one needs to consider the gain needed for a ribbon.

60db or more is often needed. This means you have to have a quiet preamp...with lots of gain.

The impedance thing is less of an issue imo.

 

Then you have the proximity effect which is quite strong on a figure 8. Then you have the fact that you have a figure 8 and are picking up room sound on the other side of the mike. Then you have the issue of which side of the mike sounds the way you want. The Royers have brighter backs, the AEA's darker backs.

This is a Man's mike, no foolin around!;) (Lee excluded)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

>>I think most importantly one needs to consider the gain needed for a ribbon.

60db or more is often needed. This means you have to have a quiet preamp...with lots of gain.

The impedance thing is less of an issue imo.

 

While gain is of course important with the ribbon, gain was not the issue in my example. It was the SOUND of the mic. It sounded dull and lifeless until I plugged it into one particular preamp, then it came to life. Gain wasn't the issue, the way it sounded was.

 

I'm pretty convinced impedance matching was responsible for the sonic difference. I can't imagine what else would've changed the sound of the mic like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

 

It sounded dull and lifeless until I plugged it into one particular preamp, then it came to life. Gain wasn't the issue, the way it sounded was.


I'm pretty convinced impedance matching was responsible for the sonic difference. I can't imagine what else would've changed the sound of the mic like that.

 

It is, but that's no different for any microphone that has an output transformer (and even some that are transformerless). There are some preamps that will make an SM57 sound better than you'd think, though on most preamps, it's just an SM57.

 

One of the things that we often hear about ribbon mics is that they need to look into a lower impedance than most preamps offer. This is true for some ribbon mics, but other ribbon mics sound best into a higher impedance than most preamps.

 

The AEA preamp designed to optimize their mics has an input impedance of around 18,000 ohms, compared to your typical preamp with an input impedance of 1,500 to 2,500 ohms. I have a Mackie 800R with an input impedance switch and found that a CAD Trion 7000 that I had for review sounded best when loaded with 500 ohms. Royer mics, since they designed them to work with the kind of gear that most people have today, seem to work best with an "ordinary" preamp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I've got a couple ribbons too - a Fathead & an Apex 210, the latter of which I had modified with a better transformer & to remove some of the wind protection. (the Chinese mics tend to have a LOT of metal inside - removing it opens up the sound, although you have to treat it a little more gently.)

 

I find them to be excellent in combination with a condenser - when I got my first one (the Apex, pre-mod) I put it side-by-side with my Rode NT2 & and recorded some acoustic guitar. The ribbon was definitely darker (the mods helped that).

 

Mixed in with the LDC, though - wow! The LDC had the crisp articulation, and the ribbon added the "woodiness" of the guitar body in a way that the LDC alone just didn't have. I used the same technique recently to record my wife singing & playing her acoustic, and the result was beautiful. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...