Practice your rests

[Tim Mayock]

I became a bass player 25 years ago sort of Because of an injury and a little because I am passionate about making music happen. The world needs more bass players.

I just went through an Anterior cervical discectomy. I am also about to have an arthoscopic surgery on my right shoulder. This is probably relevant in my writing this because I could be labeled a

[boosh]

I have a Dutch word for them "notepielers" strangely enough if you say it in English it is Note Pilers and that is exactly what they are,...the right translation however is note fiddlers or shredders,...

 

I hate them,...trying to get as many {censored}ty notes you can in a song or solo.

[alcohol]

I feel that the average jazz player of every instrument even more culpable than the average rock player.

 

However, this isn't the fault of the genre, it's the fault of the player. It's infinitely easier to babble than to make a statement.

[blue2blue]

I'm with you, brother!

 

I prefer the guys who say something musically to the guys who just spew.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with being able to play fast and most of my favorite guitarists are/were no slouches.

 

I'm a big fan of Hendrix, Herb Ellis, Grant Green, Rory Gallagher, Paul Kossof, Joe Pass, Renbourn, Richard Thompson, John McLaughlin, lots more -- and none of those guys are/were exactly all thumbs -- or afraid of really going after something when it was appropriate.

 

But even when they were playing fast -- what they were playing has/had a lot of musical content. It wasn't throwing up speed or tricks in place of emotions and feel.

 

 

I hear way too many players -- rock, jazz, new-acoustic (tappers, etc) -- who seem to substititute runs and elaborately set-up tricks for music.

 

 

Maybe about 10 years ago I realized that I felt like I'd gained a fair amount of skill and moves but that I was as far away from the music as I'd ever been... and I went through a time when I forced myself to play slow and feel what I was playing.

 

All too often it seems like guitarists are like that uncomfortable guy who is afraid his silence is going to mark him as dull or interesting and spews forth with a torrent of nervous chatter. (Kind of like how I post in message boards.* )

 

 

*[Except I really don't give 2 F's what most folks think of me, as long as I don't think I'm being a jerk. But I usually do. It's compex being me. ]

[Dean Roddey]

There's no loud without quiet, and no fast without slow. It's all in the contrast. A burst of speed at the right moment really has impact, where a 5 minute, thousand mile an hour shred stops sounding particularly impactful because it's all relative and the mind adjusts. Of course this is easy for me to say as a 'slow hand' type player. But I think it's actually true, despite providing me with a rationale for why I'm superior.

[Lee Knight]

 

The world needs more bass players.

 

 

Yes! The world does need more bass players and musicians who think like them. The world needs more drummers like Bernard Purdie too. And more guitarists like Steve Cropper. Purdie can curl your eyebrows with his dexterity (and ego), yet he manages to shut the hell up musically when it's the right thing to do. To lay out. To lay it down. The thing is, as important as Purdie's chops are, his musicallity is equally important.

 

Listen to Bluegrass music to hear players that'll tear your head off one moment, then support the next soloist by comping his ass off, to make the tune and the other players sound great.

[slight-return]

Here's a fun example

 

OK, guitarist have become enamored with Pag. Caprice 24 (some of the others too, but 24 is the one guys punt to). I think largely b/c of the reaction it gets of "wow! look at all those notes flying around"

 

Now check this performance out. One of the cool things here - notice the performer's use of good (right) thumb damping technique to control the bass notes to their proper time value. I think that goes unappreciated as it is a "negative event" (stopping instead of starting). But it's really key to the cleanliness and control that seems really central performer's interpretation of the piece

 

If you go look at your typical student's cpy of the Carcassi method, the tremolo picking etudes will be all dog eared and worn and marked up. The thumb damping pages...crisp,lilly friggin white and virtually untouched (who me? dont ask )

 

98y0Q7nLGWk

[Lee Knight]

 

...notice the performer's use of good (right) thumb damping technique to control the bass notes to their proper time value. I think that goes unappreciated as it is a "negative event" (stopping instead of starting). But it's really key to the cleanliness and control that seems really central performer's interpretation of the piece

 

 

It's the first thing I thought of when I read the title of this thread but the post itself implied improvisational restraint.

 

But... now that you've gone there, yeah. There's an idea. Treating the duration of a note with respect. One trick I love is to have the band choke on the down beat of the next bar. Not play a note, but go into negative space. Sustaiiiiin then. ! nothing. All on the beat. Wonderful.

 

And bass players have lot's of power when they pay attention to note values and their duration. Think of a dotted 1/4 follow by an 1/8 note rest, repeat. If you pull off on that rest right, the negative space, in time, has such a tremendous impact. It breathes, it grooves.

 

Great playing in that clip by the way. Wow.

[slight-return]

It's the first thing I thought of when I read the title of this thread but the post itself implied improvisational restraint.

 

Hey! now that's an interesting observation!

 

I hadn't thought to separate the two, (compositional) improvisation and phrasing.

I guess natively, I think of them as similar, but perhaps on different scales...or maybe different domains of operation

"There I have some structure to play against" - could be the notes of a composed piece, could be what the other guys in an ensemble are doing, could be the raga you are playing - whatever.

But "Here I have my wiggle room" space to play extemp, here I've got the space to phrase it this way or that, here I can add a little ornament "sauce" - whatever

 

 

 

 

hmm, Ive got my head around how I interpret them as similar, now I'll have to chew on how I find em different - I think you gave me something to think about for the week!

 

[coyote-1]

Statements tend to be composed over a period of time, subject to endless revision.

 

Conversations ramble, they babble, they sputter... and occasionally yield some wonderful nuggets.

 

I feel that the average jazz player of every instrument even more culpable than the average rock player. However, this isn't the fault of the genre, it's the fault of the player. It's infinitely easier to babble than to make a statement.

 

Note the direct analogy to a carefully crafted pop song as compared to an improvisational jazz septet. To expect eloquent, concise statements from the septet is to not live in the now... do all the conversations in your life consist of such statements??

[slight-return]

... do all the conversations in your life consist of such statements ??

 

 

dpends on how many brownies I've eaten!

[alcohol]

 

Statements tend to be composed over a period of time, subject to endless revision. Conversations ramble, they babble, they sputter... and occasionally yield some wonderful nuggets. Note the direct analogy to a carefully crafted pop song as compared to an improvisational jazz septet. To expect eloquent, concise statements from the septet is to not live in the now... do all the conversations in your life consist of such statements ??

 

 

Jazz in the "now?" I gave up on jazz a while ago, and that includes the best players. Jazz was ruined b John Coltrane. Not because Coltrane wasn't a great player, he was. But he set a standard and methodology, the even really good players can't make interesting. How many jazz players can go through a set of changes more than twice and sustain interest? And then they let each player take a turn. {censored} that. That's laziness on display.

 

Jazz doesn't have to follow the format of head, and then tedious solo follows tedious solo. A jazz septet can have improvisation, with arrangement, intertwined. Even a hard bop band can do that. It's the laziness of the approach that sucks. And a jazz show be like a conversation? If jazz can't evolve from it's glorious past then it's dead.

[rasputin1963]

Here's a YouTube video I have posted before... it shows off, for me, what I believe to be a flawless guitar solo (about 3/4 of the way in), at least as a support in a pop record: every note sort of chosen with intelligence and chordal and rhythmic relevance...

 

4LYz5mPUY2Q

 

 

But then, if someone can do a breakneck riff like the one Lee Ritenour does in The Brothers Johnson's "Strawberry Letter #23" (also about 3/4 of the way into the record), I'm all ears.

 

_esbWUWe2Yw&feature=related

 

Hell, I always get a big grin out of the three guitar solos in the extended version of THIS classic:

 

pPv4jVT8I3U

[Super 8]

A lot of people pick up guitar because they want to show off. It has nothing to do with music. It stands to reason that there would be a lot of gymnastic solos.

[Ernest Buckley]

I prefer the guys who say something musically to the guys who just spew.

 

I think Copland or maybe Sting said, the silence is part of the music... or something like that.

[rasputin1963]

I think Copland or maybe Sting said, the silence is part of the music... or something like that.

 

[YOUTUBE]hUJagb7hL0E[/YOUTUBE]

[coyote-1]

I see where you're coming from. But I gotta disagree.

 

Jazz in the "now?" I gave up on jazz a while ago, and that includes the best players. Jazz was ruined b John Coltrane. Not because Coltrane wasn't a great player, he was. But he set a standard and methodology, the even really good players can't make interesting. How many jazz players can go through a set of changes more than twice and sustain interest? And then they let each player take a turn. {censored} that. That's laziness on display. Jazz doesn't have to follow the format of head, and then tedious solo follows tedious solo. A jazz septet can have improvisation, with arrangement, intertwined. Even a hard bop band can do that. It's the laziness of the approach that sucks. And a jazz show be like a conversation? If jazz can't evolve from it's glorious past then it's dead.

 

First, jazz HAS evolved. For you to take what I wrote as the be-all and end-all of jazz shows a seriously limited thought pattern. That said, it's unlikely Fats Waller would recognize MedeskiMartinWood as 'jazz'.

 

Second, ALL music becomes a prisoner of time! Cantatas haven't really evolved since Bach. Yet to witness a performance of one, hundreds of years later, can be uplifting. So knocking the bebop - free jazz idiom for not evolving is preposterous.

 

I dunno, I never understood why some folks trying desperately to be hip feel the need to reject what's come before. But tell me, what music appeals to you now??

[Ernest Buckley]

I didn`t get Cages idea until 2001 when I was in the Grand Canyon with 11 other people. We were at Rainbow Bridge around 7p, no one else was there, the day was winding down. We just sat there in silence and it was overwhelming! Some people in the group couldn`t stand it, they started giggling and making other noises. Something about silence that is definitely beautiful and frightening depending on where you`re at.

 

A piece like this forces those in attendance to come face to face with that voice that just won`t shut up in our heads.

[blue2blue]

I didn`t get Cages idea until 2001 when I was in the Grand Canyon with 11 other people. We were at Rainbow Bridge around 7p, no one else was there, the day was winding down. We just sat there in silence and it was overwhelming! Some people in the group couldn`t stand it, they started giggling and making other noises. Something about silence that is definitely beautiful and frightening depending on where you`re at. A piece like this forces those in attendance to come face to face with that voice that just won`t shut up in our heads.

 

4'33" is a very interesting piece. With a very well chosen duration.

 

At first it just seems a conceptual conceit. And it is certainly that. But it also seems like a very good reference point for those of us who have seen scores of orchestral performances... it really makes you aware of context.

 

Not unsurprisingly.

 

 

With re to jazz and whether forward movement in the art form is 'possible' after 'Trane: Yuh, I think so.

 

Coltrane is probably the most important in my pantheon of jazz favorites and his technique and command was extraordinary, his explorations often mind-blowing -- and (usually) surprisingly coherent if you take the time to puzzle them out.

 

But while those explorations set off a small (but hard-woodshedding) army of devotees -- as well as plenty of sometimes clueless imitators of his technique that seem so often to miss the core musical value at the heart of most of it -- all of whom somehow still almost always seem to fall short of the master, I don't think that means -- by any means -- that progress (whatever we might perceive that to be) is no longer possible. Perhaps it just means that the next avenue for exploration is one that Coltrane did not so thoroughly exploit.

 

The key, it's always seemed to me, is to keep connected to the music, and let that inform the technique. The other way around just creates technically interesting but emotionally uninvolving intellectual exploration. There's a place for that in music -- sometimes we learn a lot from what falls short of our ultimate goals -- but ultimately, at least for me, music must transcend technique.

[alcohol]

I'm in 100% concurrence with the above post. Very well put!

[Ernest Buckley]

 

The key, it's always seemed to me, is to keep connected to the music, and let that inform the technique. The other way around just creates technically interesting but emotionally uninvolving intellectual exploration. There's a place for that in music -- sometimes we learn a lot from what falls short of our ultimate goals -- but ultimately, at least for me, music must transcend technique.

 

 

So, in reference to the Cage piece, what exactly are you saying? The silence itself causes one to look inward? or is that just my take? I`m confused by your post in reference to the Cage, however I do agree with your evaluation of the `trane.

 

Coltrane, appropriately named... first time I heard him, he stopped me in my tracks. Genius playing with soul.

[philbo]

I have a Dutch word for them "notepielers" strangely enough if you say it in English it is Note Pilers and that is exactly what they are,...the right translation however is note fiddlers or shredders,... I hate them,...trying to get as many {censored}ty notes you can in a song or solo.

 

The word for in English is 'wanker' Or in lounge circles, jazz soloist.

 

Edit: In reference to the above discussion on jazz: It unfortunately has become a de facto standard practice in jazz broadcasts to include plenty of wanking.... This does not take anything away from those who don't wank, it actually provides a great contrast; sort of like leaving a room full of 50 people arguing and walking into a garden with a water fountain. It makes the non-wanking musician shine all the more.

[alcohol]

Cage's 4' 33" is stupid. It's the best example of the kind of associative thinking that has perverted modern art. 4' 33' is merely an expression of muddled thinking. It's pretentious in its inception and a failure in it's realization. It's significance and influence only exists within academic circles.

It's not a musical piece but a bogus philosophical experiment.

[alcohol]

 

I'm in 100% concurrence with the above post. Very well put!

 

 

 

I have to amend this. Except with reference to John Cage.

[rasputin1963]

I only uploaded that Cage video as sort of a smart-alecky rejoinder to a discussion of rests in a musical piece (4'33" being the "ultimate rest" one might say...)

 

 

Whatever the merit of 4'33", or the lack of it, I'll have to admit that it was quite interesting, in this video, to see THAT many people in ONE relatively smallish space, all keeping their muzzles shut for THAT long of a time... Not even in churches have I seen this...

 

I suspect Cage was influenced by Zen ideas (What is the sound of one hand clapping?) and by Chinese art.... you know, where entire mountain ranges can be suggested by pure white space on a canvas.