Best Optimized DAWs for Virtual Instruments?

[Geoff Grace]

Has anyone done a study on this? I'm specifically interested in two areas of performance:

 

1) Which DAW can load the most virtual instruments without playback problems?

 

2) Which DAW has the most bug-free interaction with virtual instrument plug-ins?

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[flatfinger]

The best thing you can do is use a machine dedicated to running yer DAW. Dual boot , or whatever it take to get the background services and moduals GONE.

Multi-tasking is actually time slicing. The less your CPU has to juggle ( Interuptions) the better. There is a process at the bottom of the task managers processes tab thats called system idle processes. Whta this is is the fact that digital clocks are always running , even when there is'nt any computations going . This is an indication of how much stuff runs even when the computer is just sitting there. It should be as close to 100 % as you can get it .

 

Allot of folks will tell you that REAPER is not a great midi host , and that it's midi editing is poor . Many improvments have been made or are on the way in that department .

The reason I bring up REaper is that it is a recently coded software that does'nt have any legacy code to have to provide continued support to. It is the best at effeciently handing out threads to multi-core processor machines.

 

Sonar 8 has also just recently improved it's audio engine with optimizations , But I can't give you any hands on report of how improved it is .......Version 7 had issues with things like unbalnced loads on the cores , with 3 having moderate loads while the fourth was getting spikes.

 

 

here is something I stumbled onto

 

http://daw.me/articles/GiantMIDIcomparison.html

 

 

You also have to consider how well the VSTI's are developed; some developers proudly exclaim that there instrument is'nt as efficient on the CPU in order to sound better. Some get great sound out of a little CPU ...YMMV:p

 

 

Good Luck!!

 

 

:thu:

[flatfinger]

Also ,

Samplitude has a new , dual engine which offers a mode that's supposed to be wonderfull for VSTI's , But they it['s expensive and dongled so I will never find out if thats true !!

[amplayer]

I've not done a detailed analysis, but here are my observations on Mac for my 3 DAW packages, Logic 8, DP 5, Live 7.

 

1) DP 5 - For 3rd party plugins and low latency playback, DP is the winner. Using a samples buffer of 256 makes all my plugins feel and play great. DP still feels fine with a buffer setting of 512 samples for most things, but I still wouldn't use a guitar sim with it at 512. Supposedly DP 6 is much better at optimizing 3rd party VIs and effects, but DP 5 is already very good.

Also, DP is the only DAW I own for Mac that I can use EastWest Play and still get reasonable performance. However, DP sometimes crashes.

 

2) Live 7 - Cool for what it is. It still isn't a fully featured DAW due to a lack of a few essential features like a MIDI list editor. However, Live boots up on my system in 8 seconds flat! It rarely crashes. 3rd party support for VIs and effects is excellent. It takes both VST and AU versions. Supposedly, VST instruments should work better with Live than AU, but I haven't noticed much difference. Unfortunately, EastWest Play doesn't work well in Live. Live rarely crashes.

 

3) Logic 8 - Although this is often my Goto DAW package, it is a "Jack of all trades and master of none".

Live is much better for loops and time stretching. DP is much better for 3rd party support and film scoring.

Plugins that come with Logic are extensive, but I have better VI instruments for all of them except Sculpture. The Logic Delay Designer is fantastic and I am very fond of the included EQ and Reverb. 3rd party AU instruments and effects work just fine in Logic. However, the biggest bummer with Logic is that the samples buffer has to be set to 256 samples or lower for it to be even useful. Setting to 512 in Logic is unplayable for me. Eastwest Play is just not useful in Logic on my system unless the samples buffer is set to the unplayable 512 level.

On my system, Logic 8.02 has NEVER EVER crashed! It is so rock solid stable, that I often forget to keep hitting the command-S like I do in DP and Live! I have lost work in my other sequencers, but I have NEVER lost any work in Logic.

[danika]

Sonar 8 has also just recently improved it's audio engine with optimizations , But I can't give you any hands on report of how improved it is .......Version 7 had issues with things like unbalnced loads on the cores , with 3 having moderate loads while the fourth was getting spikes. :thu:

 

I've seen all of the discussions about Sonar supposedly having solved its VST adapter problems, but I don't believe it. I still have problems with hung notes on certain patches when I use Absynth and Kore VSTi's in Sonar. I solved the Absynth problems by switching to the DXi version, but since there's no DXi version for Kore I don't have any options. I'm seriously thinking about recreating some large projects in Cubase just so I can have stable VSTi's.

[Gus Lozada]

2) Live 7 - Cool for what it is. It still isn't a fully featured DAW due to a lack of a few essential features like a MIDI list editor. However, Live boots up on my system in 8 seconds flat! It rarely crashes. 3rd party support for VIs and effects is excellent. It takes both VST and AU versions. Supposedly, VST instruments should work better with Live than AU, but I haven't noticed much difference. Unfortunately, EastWest Play doesn't work well in Live. Live rarely crashes.

 

+ 1

 

I trust LIVE enough for using it in live situations. I run my AU synths and it is rewired with REASON, while running multi-channel backing tracks.

 

Has never crashed But of course, you have to try it first at the studio to see how it behaves.

 

So, my vote goes for LIVE here.

[Magpel]

I won't speak to Reaper's VSTi-friendliness, per se. You load it, you play it. Routing is pretty much wide open. No problem setting up, say, SampleTank for multitimbral use I would hope all the other DAWs were as simple in this regard. I am not however, a "power" MIDI/VSTi user.

 

But I WILL say that I noticed a definite increase in plug-in count when I switched to Reaper from Sonar 4 PE. Reaper is some pretty lean and mean code, in my experience.

[girevik]

Logic Pro has the Logic Node distributed processing feature.

[Anderton]

 

I've seen all of the discussions about Sonar supposedly having solved its VST adapter problems, but I don't believe it. I still have problems with hung notes on certain patches when I use Absynth and Kore VSTi's in Sonar. I solved the Absynth problems by switching to the DXi version, but since there's no DXi version for Kore I don't have any options. I'm seriously thinking about recreating some large projects in Cubase just so I can have stable VSTi's.

 

 

1. Sonar hasn't used a wrapper for several versions now...I think they did native VST support starting with 5.

2. Stuck notes relate to MIDI issues - not seeing a note-off. Not sure if that relates to VST or not.

3. I still think Cubase does the best job of handling VST devices with respect to performance, but Sonar does a better job of making VSTs easy to use.

[Duddits]

 

Logic Pro has the Logic Node distributed processing feature.

 

 

Never used it. However, one thing about Logic is that Logic's own plugins are very processor efficient, having been born from one and the same womb as the DAW.

[spokenward]

Do you think that it would be difficult to make a measurement of this performance? I would think that it would be affected by load order, design factors (disk streaming samples, wavetables, sfz, etc.), memory leaks, number of folder / locations, GUI preferences, vsti's optimized for a particular host and other factors.

[Geoff Grace]

here is something I stumbled onto http://daw.me/articles/GiantMIDIcomparison.html Good Luck!! :thu:

 

Cool! Thanks, flatfinger!

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

 

I've not done a detailed analysis, but here are my observations on Mac for my 3 DAW packages, Logic 8, DP 5, Live 7. 1) DP 5 - For 3rd party plugins and low latency playback, DP is the winner. Using a samples buffer of 256 makes all my plugins feel and play great. DP still feels fine with a buffer setting of 512 samples for most things, but I still wouldn't use a guitar sim with it at 512. Supposedly DP 6 is much better at optimizing 3rd party VIs and effects, but DP 5 is already very good. Also, DP is the only DAW I own for Mac that I can use EastWest Play and still get reasonable performance. However, DP sometimes crashes. 2) Live 7 - Cool for what it is. It still isn't a fully featured DAW due to a lack of a few essential features like a MIDI list editor. However, Live boots up on my system in 8 seconds flat! It rarely crashes. 3rd party support for VIs and effects is excellent. It takes both VST and AU versions. Supposedly, VST instruments should work better with Live than AU, but I haven't noticed much difference. Unfortunately, EastWest Play doesn't work well in Live. Live rarely crashes. 3) Logic 8 - Although this is often my Goto DAW package, it is a "Jack of all trades and master of none". Live is much better for loops and time stretching. DP is much better for 3rd party support and film scoring. Plugins that come with Logic are extensive, but I have better VI instruments for all of them except Sculpture. The Logic Delay Designer is fantastic and I am very fond of the included EQ and Reverb. 3rd party AU instruments and effects work just fine in Logic. However, the biggest bummer with Logic is that the samples buffer has to be set to 256 samples or lower for it to be even useful. Setting to 512 in Logic is unplayable for me. Eastwest Play is just not useful in Logic on my system unless the samples buffer is set to the unplayable 512 level. On my system, Logic 8.02 has NEVER EVER crashed! It is so rock solid stable, that I often forget to keep hitting the command-S like I do in DP and Live! I have lost work in my other sequencers, but I have NEVER lost any work in Logic.

 

 

That's helpful. Thanks, amplayer!

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

 

Logic Pro has the Logic Node distributed processing feature.

 

 

The Logic Node feature may help Logic load more virtual instruments, but does it do it with fewer playback problems?

 

I also wonder if the Logic Node feature helps Logic get past the limits imposed by its 32-bit architecture. If not, then I wonder how helpful the extra computers are considering how powerful today's Macs are.

 

Thanks, girevik!

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

 

Do you think that it would be difficult to make a measurement of this performance? I would think that it would be affected by load order, design factors (disk streaming samples, wavetables, sfz, etc.), memory leaks, number of folder / locations, GUI preferences, vsti's optimized for a particular host and other factors.

 

 

I agree that there are a whole lot of variables. But that doesn't mean that there aren't ways that DAWs are generally configured that make them more or less friendly to plug-ins in general.

 

Good point, spokenward!

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

Thanks, danika, Gustavo, John, Craig, and Dudddits for your input as well!

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[spokenward]

 

But that doesn't mean that there aren't ways that DAWs are generally configured that make them more or less friendly to plug-ins in general.

 

 

Geoff, I think it's a very good question, because any response from someone who knows the ins and outs of the architecture would help us understand how to improve the performance of whatever platform we choose (or end up on).

 

It is odd that we haven't found someone making an extravagant marketing claim about this performance.

[danika]

 

1. Sonar hasn't used a wrapper for several versions now...I think they did native VST support starting with 5. 2. Stuck notes relate to MIDI issues - not seeing a note-off. Not sure if that relates to VST or not. 3. I still think Cubase does the best job of handling VST devices with respect to performance, but Sonar does a better job of making VSTs easy to use.

 

 

My rationale for suspecting Sonar is pretty basic. The same track and patch using Absynth:

 

1) Does not work reliably in Sonar with the VSTi version of Absynth.

2) Works reliably in Sonar with the DXi version of Absynth.

3) Works reliably in Cubase with the VSTi version of Absynth.

 

If scotch and water makes you drunk and bourbon and water makes you drunk, then it must be the water that makes you drunk.

[blue2blue]

The best thing you can do is use a machine dedicated to running yer DAW. Dual boot , or whatever it take to get the background services and moduals GONE. Multi-tasking is actually time slicing. The less your CPU has to juggle ( Interuptions) the better. There is a process at the bottom of the task managers processes tab thats called system idle processes. Whta this is is the fact that digital clocks are always running , even when there is'nt any computations going . This is an indication of how much stuff runs even when the computer is just sitting there. It should be as close to 100 % as you can get it . Allot of folks will tell you that REAPER is not a great midi host , and that it's midi editing is poor . Many improvments have been made or are on the way in that department . The reason I bring up REaper is that it is a recently coded software that does'nt have any legacy code to have to provide continued support to. It is the best at effeciently handing out threads to multi-core processor machines. Sonar 8 has also just recently improved it's audio engine with optimizations , But I can't give you any hands on report of how improved it is .......Version 7 had issues with things like unbalnced loads on the cores , with 3 having moderate loads while the fourth was getting spikes. here is something I stumbled onto http://daw.me/articles/GiantMIDIcomparison.html You also have to consider how well the VSTI's are developed; some developers proudly exclaim that there instrument is'nt as efficient on the CPU in order to sound better. Some get great sound out of a little CPU ...YMMV:p Good Luck!! :thu:

Dedicating a machien to DAW use is probably the easiest way to keep things trim and stable, but it's not actually necessary if you're willing to use your head -- and keep an eye on your system health, keep an eye on how many processes are loaded (particularly after installing new softare), and, of course, surf safely.

 

But if you simply dedicate your machine to a single use, only go on the web for uptdates etc, and turn off network support services in between -- particularly Wi Fi which seems to always have its little fingers on the system's hem, saying, me, me, check my threads to see if there's any WiFi signals out there I should know about -- you will probably have the easiest time maintaining a lean, mean machine.

 

But, you know, if you're willing to put in a little extra, you can take out a little extra, too, in terms of use.

 

 

For those of us who must or just want to use our machines for multiple purposes, a handy tool for looking for system latency spikes due to backround processes is DPC Latency Checker.

[Anderton]

 

My rationale for suspecting Sonar is pretty basic. The same track and patch using Absynth: 1) Does not work reliably in Sonar with the VSTi version of Absynth. 2) Works reliably in Sonar with the DXi version of Absynth. 3) Works reliably in Cubase with the VSTi version of Absynth. If scotch and water makes you drunk and bourbon and water makes you drunk, then it must be the water that makes you drunk.

 

 

I'm not questioning whether the problem is with Sonar, I'm questioning whether the problem is with the VST or MIDI end of things. I'm not sure how VST would contribute to not seeing a note-off, so that's why I'm assuming it's a Sonar MIDI issue. But I don't know much about coding and how these things work...

[ew_]

It all depends on what version of Absynth you're talking about. V3 on some systems was very susceptible to hung notes if you had any interruption of the MIDI stream (such as power cycling of USB hubs). While I never saw it personally, I know of a few people who used to pull their hair out over it. And, I've never had stuck note issues with either Kore 1 or 2 and Sonar.

 

If you're using Sonar on XP, power management to the USB root hubs must be shut off in device manager if you're using a USB controller and/or interface and you don't want stuck notes and/or dropouts. Sonar's very sensitive to the hubs dropping out.

 

Your Absynth and Kore forums moderator,

ew

[amplayer]

 

My rationale for suspecting Sonar is pretty basic. The same track and patch using Absynth: 1) Does not work reliably in Sonar with the VSTi version of Absynth. 2) Works reliably in Sonar with the DXi version of Absynth. 3) Works reliably in Cubase with the VSTi version of Absynth. If scotch and water makes you drunk and bourbon and water makes you drunk, then it must be the water that makes you drunk.

 

 

I don't use Sonar or Cubase very much, although I have the lite versions of both of them. However, I use Absynth. In general, I commend NI for very reliable and relatively bug free products. However, when using Absynth, I have experienced issues with hung notes and MIDI controllers that don't reset. On my Mac, Absynth works fine in MOTU DP 5, but is not that reliable in Ableton Live 7. I haven't used Absynth that much with Logic 8.02 yet, but when I get a chance, I'll try it.

[Cry Logic]

 

"....If you're using Sonar on XP, power management to the USB root hubs must be shut off in device manager if you're using a USB controller and/or interface and you don't want stuck notes and/or dropouts. Sonar's very sensitive to the hubs dropping out..."

 

 

Wow!

That's something I didn't know.

 

Is this a common problem with USB in all midi enabled programs?

 

One of the negative things about Vista is they've dropped support

entirely for the gameport where old school midi connectors lived!

 

It's USB or firewire only and IMHO USB sucks for midi.

 

Anyone know of a good Firewire midi interface?

 

Edit: I just checked all the USB root hubs on my system and power management

seems to be disabled by default in all of them......

i'm still getting the odd hung note though....

 

I guess I was right .....USB for midi just sucks!

[ew_]

I don't have any issues with USB MIDI on my system; I use the original Kore controller, Maschine, an E-Mu XBoard 61 and a Midisport 8x8 for MIDI interfaces. All USB...

 

ew

[Anderton]

MIDI's bandwidth is nothing compared to 1.1. I've never had MIDI problems with USB on Mac or Windows.

 

I'm starting to think there could be several other "gotchas" in play here.

 

1. Start up programs that run in the background (e.g., Microsoft Office Fast Find, indexing, etc.).

2. Anti-virus programs that are constantly scanning your hard drives.

3. Conflicts within the system (e.g., for some people, disabling a wireless card solved weird problems).

4. Drivers for other elements of the system need updating - you'd be amazed how much a graphics card affects performance, and sometimes updating graphics card drivers can fix audio problems.

 

IOW, there could be things that are essentially taking over your computer at crucial moments when note-offs happen, and a particular program or combination of events pushes it "over the edge."

 

These are hard to track down, but when you do, it's astonishing how much your computer will improve on all levels. And if you've EVER had Norton on your system, run - don't walk - to the Norton web site, dig down many layers, and locate the tool for removing ALL vestiges of Norton from your machine.