Members techristian Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Michael Jackson had probably the greatest music producer of the last half of the 20th century (Quincy Jones) and probably one the greatest recording engineers of the all time (Bruce Swedien) who hired the best studio musicians on the planet and recorded in the best recording studios in the world.He also had ridiculous budgets that allowed his engineer and producer to mix a song like Billy Jean a hundred times. MJ was a great entertainer and a pop icon, but he had nothing to do with the beat or the sound of those drums. The credit there goes to Quincy, Bruce, great drummers and the resources to put it all together.No disrespect to MJ, but that is the truth. I believe that it is possible that Michael Jackson recorded his drum and bass tracks with MIDI sequencers and heavily quantized it. I also realize that he may have hired real drummers on some songs. I believe that he was his own producer on many songs. Bruce , could you please clear this up for all of us. enquiring minds want to know. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 If I`m not mistaken, anyone who worked for MJ had to sign a contract that nothing would be discussed so... you`re probably going to get nothing but the standard ... "MJ was a talent the world has never seen, I was honored to work with him. The world will miss him". [Edit] Just wanted to add that I`ve been listening to MJ since his passing... TechChristian- His records were a hybrid of live drums and MIDI/samples. You can here it on "Beat It" for example. At the ten second mark, you clearly have MIDI drums, then at 00:23 real drums kick in and you have a mix of MIDI with real drums throughout the remainder of the song. As I`m listening to this, I`m reminded of how many people say software today, especially REASON, has "a sound" to it. MJs records have an older 80s MIDI sound to them, sort of reminds me of Def Lepperds records; a juxtaposition of real and samples. Nothing wrong with "that sound". Its all about what you put around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 26, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 26, 2009 Over the years there have been many articles about the recording of Billy Jean, etc. Rest assured, those Off the Wall and Thriller tracks were played by a kick ass drummer. Perhaps there was some midi stuff here or there. Most likely. But the groove you seem to be referring to was human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bp Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Leon "Ndugu" Chancler played much of the drums. Bruce has stated this in the past. There's no controversy here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 I believe that it is possible that Michael Jackson recorded his drum and bass tracks with MIDI sequencers and heavily quantized it. I also realize that he may have hired real drummers on some songs. I believe that he was his own producer on many songs. Bruce , could you please clear this up for all of us. enquiring minds want to know. Dan A link I posted in the RIP MJ thread, also citing how MJ was an active participant in the whole process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thriller_(album) Jackson reunited with Off the Wall producer Quincy Jones to record his sixth studio album. The pair worked together on 300 songs, nine of which were eventually included. [17] Thriller was recorded between April and November of 1982, with a production budget of $750,000. Several members of the band Toto were also involved in the album's recording and production. [17] Jackson wrote four songs for the record: " Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'", " The Girl Is Mine" (with Paul McCartney), " Beat It" and " Billie Jean". [18] Unlike many artists, Jackson did not write these songs on paper. Instead, he would dictate into a sound recorder; when recording he would sing from memory. [19][20] The relationship between Jackson and Jones became strained during the album's recording. Jackson spent much of his time rehearsing dance steps alone. [20] When the album's nine songs were completed, both Jones and Jackson were unhappy with the result and remixed every song, spending a week on each. [20] Jones believed that "Billie Jean" was not strong enough to be included on the record, but Jackson disagreed and kept it. Jones told Jackson that Thriller would be unlikely to sell successfully like Off the Wall had, because the market had since weakened. In response, Jackson threatened to cancel the album's release. [17] In one interview, Jackson said that he was inspired to create an album where "every song was a killer" and focused the basis of Thriller as to ask, "Why can't every one be like a hit song?". [21] Jones and songwriter Rod Temperton gave detailed accounts of what occurred for the 2001 reissue of the album. Jones discussed "Billie Jean" and why it was so personal to Jackson, who struggled to deal with a number of obsessed fans. Jones wanted the long introduction on the song to be shortened; however, Jackson insisted it remain because it made him want to dance. [18] Jones and Jackson were determined to make a rock song that would appeal to all tastes and spent weeks looking for a suitable guitarist for the song "Beat It", a song Jackson wrote and played drums on. Eventually, they found Eddie Van Halen of the rock band Van Halen. [18][20] I'll also add that I once briefly met Michael Jackson's drummer (or one of them, anyway), so, uh, he has at least one human drummer!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 I believe that it is possible that Michael Jackson recorded his drum and bass tracks with MIDI sequencers and heavily quantized it. Hey Dan, one thing to keep in mind with MIDI (not that a sequencer has to be MIDI) -- MIDI was speced in '83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duddits Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 MJ worked with the perfect storm of dream team, a once in a generation combination of talent. Bruce and Quincy are both geniuses. The other day I was driving around and an old Bruce mix came up on the radio. It was so much better sounding than anything before or after on the same station it was like my car radio had been swapped out for a better one just for that song! Bruce is a genius. Quincy's a genius. But MJ was a genius of a sort that goes beyond even the usual superlative definition of the word. All his personal issues cloud his musical rep, but as a musician, he was so freakishly good, that it's impossible to overstate his talent. He's among the best musicians who ever lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amplayer Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 But MJ was a genius of a sort that goes beyond even the usual superlative definition of the word. All his personal issues cloud his musical rep, but as a musician, he was so freakishly good, that it's impossible to overstate his talent. He's among the best musicians who ever lived. Perfectly stated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tucktronix Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Perfectly stated! +1 I really dig your avatar, btw:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 I believe that it is possible that Michael Jackson recorded his drum and bass tracks with MIDI sequencers and heavily quantized it. I also realize that he may have hired real drummers on some songs. I believe that he was his own producer on many songs. Bruce , could you please clear this up for all of us. enquiring minds want to know.Dan I suspect his records were done like most were in the '80s--a combination of both real and machine. The liner notes to his albums would suggest this. I know there was a real drummer on Billie Jean, and several of the songs on Thriller, but sequencers and drum machines were often used on his records as well. Sometimes a real drummer would play along with a machine. I imagine Michael and his production team did anything they could to get whatever result they were after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 I believe that it is possible that Michael Jackson recorded his drum and bass tracks with MIDI sequencers and heavily quantized it. It is also possible that MJ recorded Thriller all by himself in his basement on a Tascam Portastudio. Possible? Yes. True? Not at all. Again (for you sensitive souls out there). Michael Jackson was immensely talented as a performer and in many other ways, but a great drummer he was not. That he had the best production team in the world, the best musicians, and songwriting help, and almost a million dollar budget on Thriller does not minimalize or trivialize his immense gifts. It does however put them in perspective. I am not dissing MJ in any way here. Just giving credit for the drum sound (which is what my post was about) where it is due. There is no controversy here. Who the drummers, engineers, producers on his records is well documented. As are his enormous recording budgets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted June 27, 2009 Members Share Posted June 27, 2009 From Wikipedia: The song was mixed by Bruce Swedien ninety-one times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members techristian Posted June 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 27, 2009 Hey Dan, one thing to keep in mind with MIDI (not that a sequencer has to be MIDI) -- MIDI was speced in '83 Well if it wasn't MIDI that he used on Billy Jean, then it was tape loops or some other automation. That "real drummer" he used was probably looped. I'll bet that each beat of 1 2 3 and 4 deviate no more than 10 ms from perfect. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted June 27, 2009 Members Share Posted June 27, 2009 That's a cool cover!I need to get me a copy for SURE!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted June 27, 2009 Members Share Posted June 27, 2009 Well if it wasn't MIDI that he used on Billy Jean, then it was tape loops or some other automation. That "real drummer" he used was probably looped. I'll bet that each beat of 1 2 3 and 4 deviate no more than 10 ms from perfect.Dan Nope...it was all Ndugu. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_'Ndugu'_Chancler One of the best time-keepers in history.He may have been playing to a master click, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bp Posted June 27, 2009 Members Share Posted June 27, 2009 Dan, go see Ndugu live sometime. Then you'll "get it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted June 27, 2009 Members Share Posted June 27, 2009 "In the Studio with Michael Jackson"by Bruce SwedienHal Leonard (September 1, 2009)http://www.amazon.com/Studio-Michael-Jackson-Bruce-Swedien/dp/1423464958 I'll definitely get this when it comes out (yes, I know you can pre-order it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jotown Posted June 27, 2009 Members Share Posted June 27, 2009 Nope...it was all Ndugu.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_'Ndugu'_ChanclerOne of the best time-keepers in history.He may have been playing to a master click, though.The beat to Billie Jean is very simple. There is nothing revolutionary or original about it. What makes it amazing is how it sounds, and the integrity of the amazing drummer that played it. And again; this takes nothing away from MJ's writing or amazing perforamnce, not to mention the way cool video that pushed the sales to amazing numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members offramp Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Dan, go see Ndugu live sometime. Then you'll "get it". Not likely. Dan seems rather obsessed with NPS (notes per second). Particularly in triplet form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members techristian Posted June 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Not likely. Dan seems rather obsessed with NPS (notes per second). Particularly in triplet form. Not true. when I'm playing to music I play a very MINIMALIST style, just holding time/grove with only a few rolls. I don't force any licks in if they don't fit. I'm still trying to get a copy of that jam that I did with Craig. Yes it was a simple beat, on Billy Jean, but the precision was uncanny. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bp Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 I've worked with Ndugu with George Duke. The guy is flat out the finest drummer I've worked with and I've been fortunate to have worked with tons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Not true. when I'm playing to music I play a very MINIMALIST style, just holding time/grove with only a few rolls. I don't force any licks in if they don't fit. I'm still trying to get a copy of that jam that I did with Craig.Yes it was a simple beat, on Billy Jean, but the precision was uncanny. Dan Bruce Swedien revealed on another forum that Billie Jean was recorded before there were loops and drum samples, and Ndugu performed the take from beginning to end. I'd copy and paste the quote here, but I don't know if he'd be cool with it. But I've basically paraphrased what he said. Anyway, here you go...[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Bruce Swedien revealed on another forum that Billie Jean was recorded before there were loops and drum samples, and Ndugu performed the take from beginning to end.I'd copy and paste the quote here, but I don't know if he'd be cool with it. But I've basically paraphrased what he said.Anyway, here you go... Thanks for that, kurdy. Here's another one where he shows off some sick polyrhythms: 8ZmZPgbqIZM I am a big fan of musicians that choose to play drums, as opposed to the people who buy a set of drums, set them up, and wail on them with no musicality, whatsoever. I could watch Dennis Chambers, Dave Weckl, Bernard Purdy, and Buddy Rich (and all those other greats) on YouTube or Drummerworld all day long, and I'm not even a drummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 From what I understand Bruce is pretty shaken up by MJ's passing. If he has any answers, it will be on his own time. For now, I think we need to respect that Bruce lost a co-worker of truly historic proportions, and simply be grateful that we have been left with some outstanding recorded music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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