Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 I do a lot of writing for my job so I need something professional looking and very flexible. Has to allow everything from lyrics to chords to choral arrangements, a variety of instruments from piano, organ, guitar, trumpet, strings and possible percussion sometime down the line... I`m looking at Finale 2012... seems to fit my needs. Anyone use this program? I also like the orchestral sound bank it comes with! I had their other program "Songwriter" a while back but found it too limiting for what I was doing so I`ve been handing out hand written scores in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 I still have a proghram called Midisoft on my computer for writing music and hearing the midi plaback. Pretty time consuming though. For most stuff I use MS Word. I do have an old program called Memphis, that would allow you to put in the lyrics, chords, and notes simular to what you would see in a guitar book. I didnt have allot of need for it though. All the extra staffs would just take up precious spaceon the page and i'd wind up having to use two or three pages for a song that would easily fit on a single page. Kind of sucks turning pages performing. I also have a program that will turn Midi files into tabs and vice versa which is pretty cool. All are very dated now. You may want to check out Finale http://www.finalemusic.com/default.aspxOr sibelus http://www.sibelius.com/home/index_flash.html Theres some free ones out there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 I don`t mind spending the $$$, I need something professional! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 Isn't Sibelius one of the few big dogs for that type of thing? Opps, I see it's already been mentioned. I've never used it. I know it's required for some college music courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 Just from some of the brief research I`ve done, it looks like Finale is the leader in the field. Their website has a cool side by side comparison with Sibelius...comparing sounds. This is a really nice feature about the programs, so different than when I first dabbled with it years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scarecrowbob Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 I know folks that use Finale and Sibelius. It seems like either will do pro work. Mostly it appears to be a preference thing, along with learning enough KB shorcuts to be able to work efficiently. A video tutorial set would be a big deal for my decision; IME, reliable training material is pretty important. The $25 for something like this (for Sibelius) would be totally worth it: http://www.lynda.com/Sibelius-6-tutorials/Essential-Training/76974-2.html I haven't done that tutorial, but I've learned a whole lot form those folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 It always scares me a bit knowing there are DVDs and websites dedicated to learning software. That equates into, "this software is anti-intuitive, you`re going to need help or you will drown!" Granted, there is always something cool techniques to learn that shave off some time learning it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 It always scares me a bit knowing there are DVDs and websites dedicated to learning software. That equates into, "this software is anti-intuitive, you`re going to need help or you will drown!" Perhaps it's coincidence but this seems to apply to about 90% of the programs I use! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scarecrowbob Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 That's an interesting take on it. Conversely, if there are no pro tutorials about a subject, it usually means that there are few professionals who are interested in the subject... I gave up on expecting that some of these tools will be obvious to use-- the best I can hope for is that they translate easily enough across platforms (i.e. the spacebar makes the music come out ) Most of the tools I use are complex enough that you really do need some training on how to use them, and not just to pick up some cool pointers, such as Ps, Wordpress, or HTML in general. But mostly these tools are things I'm using to make a living, so if I can up my understanding on something in a quick 10 hours worth of training it is a no-brainer. A 10 hour investment that will save me 20 hours over two months is like getting a day and a half of paid vacation. And I've found that to be a routine number for return on time spent training. So its not really about "not drowning" as much as how to do things efficiently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 It's hard to find people who have used both Finale and Sibelius to get a side-by-side comparison, but those are the two top professional-level programs. I'm a Finale user and just recently upgraded to version 2012. Since you said in your OP that you're leaning toward it, I'm here to recommend it highly. I've used it to engrave professionally for Hal Leonard, Alfred/Warner Bros., and Acoustic Guitar magazine with full compatibility with their in-house styles and no cross-platform compatibility issues whatsoever. This is the link that compares the orchestral playback of Finale and Sibelius. Since this is on the makemusic.com site (the makers of Finale), you would expect Finale to come out sounding better. Either program will do the job, especially if you're starting out and in a single-user environment. Finale is older and more established, and it's the one I use. I've never felt there was anything missing that would require me to switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 It's hard to find people who have used both Finale and Sibelius to get a side-by-side comparison, but those are the two top professional-level programs. I'm a Finale user and just recently upgraded to version 2012. Since you said in your OP that you're leaning toward it, I'm here to recommend it highly. I've used it to engrave professionally for Hal Leonard, Alfred/Warner Bros., and Acoustic Guitar magazine with full compatibility with their in-house styles and no cross-platform compatibility issues whatsoever.This is the link that compares the orchestral playback of Finale and Sibelius. Since this is on the makemusic.com site (the makers of Finale), you would expect Finale to come out sounding better.Either program will do the job, especially if you're starting out and in a single-user environment. Finale is older and more established, and it's the one I use. I've never felt there was anything missing that would require me to switch. Thanks Jon, thats exactly what I was hoping to hear. Yeah, I listened to the finale vs. sibelius files comparing the two programs and like you said, I was not expecting any different results. I compose for various outlets and need something that will keep me covered so Finale looks like its the one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Goobers Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 I do a lot of writing for my job so I need something professional looking and very flexible. Has to allow everything from lyrics to chords to choral arrangements, a variety of instruments from piano, organ, guitar, trumpet, strings and possible percussion sometime down the line... I`m looking at Finale 2012... seems to fit my needs. Anyone use this program? I also like the orchestral sound bank it comes with! {censored} yeah, brother. Finale is the shiz. The coding is archaic, but the program kicks ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vintagevibes Posted November 8, 2011 Members Share Posted November 8, 2011 I've used both and hands down I prefer Sibelius. It's far easier and more intuitive that Final IMO. Also Sibelius 7 is the only 64bit notation app on the market. It supports rewire and its built-in library completely smokes the one that comes with Finale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 This is the link that compares the orchestral playback of Finale and Sibelius. Since this is on the makemusic.com site (the makers of Finale), you would expect Finale to come out sounding better. As a disclaimer: I work for AVID and Sibelius is one of our brands. I found that comparison hilarious. In the end, they made BOTH programs sound like generic internet MIDI files being played back by the computer's internal MIDI synth or like a very old version of "Band in a Box" Horrible programming and terrible articulation of the instruments. Lifeless. ... I guess they think users may think Finale sounds better because they added reverb into their instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members panthalassa Posted November 8, 2011 Members Share Posted November 8, 2011 As a disclaimer: I work for AVID and Sibelius is one of our brands. I found that comparison hilarious. As folks may or may not know, I'm a Reason fanboy, so ReWire is very cool. Thanks for the comparison. On a related note, has anybody compared Logic Pro's notation feature (I'm aware it may be limited) with those more full-featured programs? I'm a guitar, bass, and upright bass instructor, and I find all these programs inhibit my flow. When I'm with a student, the old pen-and-paper works best logistically. If someone wants to learn something I don't already have, then I notate it right then and there - legibly - using tabs or notation. It's way faster than anything I'm currently aware of. Of course, I always scan everything as .pdfs. I suppose that, even if I get an iPad or similar that can intelligently transcribe my writing the way I want, I'd still have to print something out. And MIDI peripherals are clunky; you have to clean up the mistakes in the box, and so on. In short, there's a ways to go before things are truly efficient in the transcription department. For orchestrations, or for making a piece pretty, current software seems fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members indigo_dave Posted November 9, 2011 Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 I've been hoping there would be some sort of music notation tablet application eventually. But not a midi based app, just a simple graphic oriented program which could be set on my piano music stand. I'd like to be able to enter music with one of those styluses (styli ?). I've had PrintMusic for some years but it's not very good in my estimation for doing musical sketches. I'd like to enter lead sheet style melodies with jazz style chord symbols under them. But if I had a specific chord voicing in mind, I'd like to be able to notate it and go back to the chord symbols. A program on a tablet would also enable you to expand the size of a few measures you're working on and then shrink them back down when done with them. Also, you should be able to have different versions of a given passage stored as you're trying different ideas. This would not be for creating arrangements for a choir or jazz lab band, but more for musical sketching and composition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vintagevibes Posted November 9, 2011 Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 As folks may or may not know, I'm a Reason fanboy, so ReWire is very cool. Thanks for the comparison.On a related note, has anybody compared Logic Pro's notation feature (I'm aware it may be limited) with those more full-featured programs? I'm a guitar, bass, and upright bass instructor, and I find all these programs inhibit my flow. When I'm with a student, the old pen-and-paper works best logistically. If someone wants to learn something I don't already have, then I notate it right then and there - legibly - using tabs or notation. It's way faster than anything I'm currently aware of. Of course, I always scan everything as .pdfs. I suppose that, even if I get an iPad or similar that can intelligently transcribe my writing the way I want, I'd still have to print something out. And MIDI peripherals are clunky; you have to clean up the mistakes in the box, and so on. In short, there's a ways to go before things are truly efficient in the transcription department. For orchestrations, or for making a piece pretty, current software seems fine. I teach guitar, bass and drums and I never use paper. For me computer is the only way to go. My on-the-spot explanations end up as future lesson plans. They are professional looking documents that are easily distributed and updated. I could not teach the way I do without software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 As a disclaimer: I work for AVID and Sibelius is one of our brands. I found that comparison hilarious. In the end, they made BOTH programs sound like generic internet MIDI files being played back by the computer's internal MIDI synth or like a very old version of "Band in a Box" Horrible programming and terrible articulation of the instruments. Lifeless. ... I guess they think users may think Finale sounds better because they added reverb into their instruments Yeah, I found the comparison page funny too. Hard to believe there is such a "difference". I looked on the Sibelius website but could`t find any samples. Any help there Gus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members panthalassa Posted November 9, 2011 Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 I teach guitar, bass and drums and I never use paper. For me computer is the only way to go. My on-the-spot explanations end up as future lesson plans. They are professional looking documents that are easily distributed and updated. I could not teach the way I do without software. Clearly you have implemented the computer interface in a way that doesn't impede your playing flow, correct? I can hold a pencil and a guitar pick (or string bass bow whole standing up) at the same time, face the student and the music stand, etc. Plus my tabulature incorporates the rhythm structure underneath the tab lines, which is much cleaner than the old notation-on-top display, which takes up too much space. If you know of a program and an interface that can do what I just described, I'll gladly have a look. Otherwise it's too much kabuki for me, thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Huh? Posted November 9, 2011 Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 I have Sibelius 6. Beautiful looking program. Sib 7 is out now. 64 bit.....unlike Pro Tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted November 9, 2011 Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 Clearly you have implemented the computer interface in a way that doesn't impede your playing flow, correct? I can hold a pencil and a guitar pick (or string bass bow whole standing up) at the same time, face the student and the music stand, etc. Plus my tabulature incorporates the rhythm structure underneath the tab lines, which is much cleaner than the old notation-on-top display, which takes up too much space. If you know of a program and an interface that can do what I just described, I'll gladly have a look. Otherwise it's too much kabuki for me, thank you very much. panthalassa, I know where you're coming from. Pencil and paper will never be replaced. As an analogy, I love my iPod touch, and it can send emails and browse the web famously. But to take notes on it? Fugheddaboutit. I was having lunch at my local WiFi cafe when my co-writer called and said, "I can't talk, but I've got 7 corrections and suggestions on your piece. Can I dictate them real quick-like?" Can you imagine if I had tried to enter notes in a hurry using a touch screen and a finger? The pencil is still king in many situations. But notation programs have their place, even if quick note-taking and transcribing are not among them. And there are cases where a notation program is actually faster for note take-down. For example, I play banjo, where it's all about patterns and rolls. You're not really thinking of notes. (The high 5th string makes sure of that.) With a MIDI controller set up to put fretted strings onto their own individual lines of the tab, you can much more quickly lay down a banjo part than if you had to notate it. You just play. Same is true for keyboard work. You can play into a notation program either to a beat, or play out of tempo and assign a beat later (better for rubato playing, or playing multi-note chords really slowly, as you do when inputting full scores). Scoring programs are essential if you need to publish or otherwise distribute your music. They also play back what you have written--a great check and a lot less hassle than hiring an ensemble. The people who gravitate toward them tend to have traditional or classical music training. They see themselves writing or arranging into a score, and they work on it from there. I'm from that school, having studied music in college, where you simply had to be able to read scores, and the only way to submit your written work (original compositions, jazz arrangements) was via a score. Scoring is a primary tool for those types of musicians. People who grow up playing by ear, or who compose on DAWs and sequencers might not put as much importance in the actual scoring features of a scoring program. (Witness the argument about the playback sounds in Sibelius vs. Finale. BTW, you can swap out any of the included instruments with ones from your own library. Ivory II pianos, anyone?) Both Finale and Sibelius will serve you well if you're looking for a professional-level scoring and notation program. Now, if you'll excuse me I have to check in on the "Mac vs. PC," "Pro Tools vs. Cubase," and "Lamborghini vs. Ferrari" threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vintagevibes Posted November 9, 2011 Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 Clearly you have implemented the computer interface in a way that doesn't impede your playing flow, correct? I can hold a pencil and a guitar pick (or string bass bow whole standing up) at the same time, face the student and the music stand, etc. Plus my tabulature incorporates the rhythm structure underneath the tab lines, which is much cleaner than the old notation-on-top display, which takes up too much space. If you know of a program and an interface that can do what I just described, I'll gladly have a look. Otherwise it's too much kabuki for me, thank you very much. Well there are differences. I can have a guitar strapped on while working in Sibelius but I imagine there are situations where a pencil would be easier. Sibelius is quite capable of writing tablature with rhythm on a single staff. (stems rising from fret numbered "noteheads") That's how I always do it. Also I can easily call up tablature for just about any string instrument I'd ever want. I just added Ukulele lessons and it was a snap to tab out songs and instructional materials. And for guitar the library of built in chord and scale diagrams is vast. The other day I created scale diagrams for bass modes in about 15 minutes and it is publisher quality. Of course I know the program well and have templates made with hidden staves that show only the scale diagrams and not the staves. I'm not knocking the immediacy of pencil and paper but I'm amazed often at how many things I can easily do in Sibelius. Plus, of course, I can use play back to hear what I've written which helps with lessons but also is a very quick way to check for mistakes. Check out Sibelius. All software has a learning curve but the tools it provides for teaching are amazing. Some prefer Finale but I'm Sibelius fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jon Chappell Posted November 9, 2011 Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 Check out Sibelius. All software has a learning curve but the tools it provides for teaching are amazing. Some prefer Finale but I'm Sibelius fan. Hey, vintagevibes! I've got a great idea for a reality show: "Notation Scoring Program Swap." It will be modeled on "Wife Swap." Doesn't the name just roll trippingly off the tongue? You and I will switch notation programs for a month (I'm a Finale user), and we'll get a TV crew to follow us around, chronicling our exploits. Oh, the misadventures we'll get into! Oh, the hilarity! Watch out, Kardashians! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Huh? Posted November 9, 2011 Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 I don`t mind spending the $$$, I need something professional!.........get ready to part ways with your savings!!!!! The King Daddy is VSL......the Vienna Symphonic Library.....big $$$$'s. http://www.vsl.co.at/en/67/3920/4700.vsl# Symphobia is a farking great library for sorta preconfigured ensembles......big $$$$'s Do not get Symphobia 2 if you don't have Symphobia 1. I ponied up for the East West Quantum Leap PLAY Symphonic Orchestra Platinum Plus Edition library.It is EW's top symphonic library. Their Hollywood Strings and Brass libraries are pretty phenomenal also. Look for it popping in and out of Sale. Alternatively, you can save a few bones by going to EWQL SO Gold which has only the 16 bit samples and less mic positions. It is 1/2 the price of Platinum plus which is 24bit/16bit and more mic positions. LASS....LA Scoring Strings....very good program.....excellent actually, top shelf. Garritan Personal Orchestra, marching Band and Jazz and Big Band are excellent libraries for the price point. I have Personal Orchestra and J&BB....good stuff. very inexpensive and a good place to start before you drop well over $1000 on an orchestral library. If you go EWQL Symphonic Orchestra there is a 3rd party template for Sibelius that costs a few $'s.....forget maybe $30 or so. There are other libraries...Cinesamples has great stuff...plenty of stuff out there. As to your comment about the DVD tutorials and "you`re going to need help or you will drown!" Buckle up Buckley! The learning curves are steep! Well I can tell you for Sibelius it is. Forget these guys telling you all you do is write the dots and you get pro sounding scores. Not gonna happen. There are so many articulations and techniques that need to be programmed in as CC messages....bowing, lipping, dynamics, breath etc etc etc and these have to be applied to get realistic sounding passages. There is a great book that has been in print for a long time now, that I got, called The Guide To MIDI Orchestration by Paul Gilreath. http://www.amazon.com/Guide-MIDI-Orchestration-4e/dp/tags-on-product/0240814134 Bottom line...you don't just enter some dots and get a pro sounding score. Another deal is the size of these libraries and what sequencer you are using etc the massive hit on your CPU. Many pro composers end up getting two or more computers in order to run huge "orchestras" At the least consider a slave computer to hold all the samples. With a product like Vienna Ensemble Pro, you can open your orchestral library in the slave and have it connected via LAN to the host computer with the DAW software, thereby taking all the strain off the host. So VEPro has a "mixer" that opens with all your instruments in it and in your DAW you have the MIDI files. over the ethernet cable they communicate ...MIDI info get's over to the slave and the audio comes back the other way to the DAW. You can also run 64 bit in the slave while running a 32bit DAW. Kinda like opening the library in a Rewire app like Reason within the DAW session, be it Logic, Pro Tools, DP, Cubase etc etc. http://www.viennaensemblepro.com/#!features Vienna Ensemble Pro also comes with the free Epic Orchestra. http://www.viennaensemblepro.com/#!epic_orchestra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 10, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2011 Okay EB....I think both of those comparison files sounded like total ass! Not only that....it would be so pathetically easy to skew the Finale files to sound better. In fact all you even need to do is up the volume by .5dB or something and it will be perceived as better. I cannot speak for Sib 7 as I have not heard it. I do see it comes with a 40GB sound library. This could be Sibelius Essentials sound library...a "LITE" version of Garritan or some other library. But truth be told, these are barely even good enough for mock ups. At best they are there to make the writing process a tad quicker with basic sounds on tap. But if you want professional sounding mock ups.....or even something for TV soundtrack broadcast........ you need to go to a professional sound library................get ready to part ways with your savings!!!!! The King Daddy is VSL......the Vienna Symphonic Library.....big $$$$'s. http://www.vsl.co.at/en/67/3920/4700.vsl#Symphobia is a farking great library for sorta preconfigured ensembles......big $$$$'s Do not get Symphobia 2 if you don't have Symphobia 1. I ponied up for the East West Quantum Leap PLAY Symphonic Orchestra Platinum Plus Edition library.It is EW's top symphonic library. Their Hollywood Strings and Brass libraries are pretty phenomenal also. Look for it popping in and out of Sale. Alternatively, you can save a few bones by going to EWQL SO Gold which has only the 16 bit samples and less mic positions. It is 1/2 the price of Platinum plus which is 24bit/16bit and more mic positions. LASS.... LA Scoring Strings....very good program.....excellent actually, top shelf. Garritan Personal Orchestra, marching Band and Jazz and Big Band are excellent libraries for the price point. I have Personal Orchestra and J&BB....good stuff. very inexpensive and a good place to start before you drop well over $1000 on an orchestral library. If you go EWQL Symphonic Orchestra there is a 3rd party template for Sibelius that costs a few $'s.....forget maybe $30 or so. There are other libraries...Cinesamples has great stuff...plenty of stuff out there. As to your comment about the DVD tutorials and "you`re going to need help or you will drown!" Buckle up Buckley! The learning curves are steep! Well I can tell you for Sibelius it is. Forget these guys telling you all you do is write the dots and you get pro sounding scores. Not gonna happen. There are so many articulations and techniques that need to be programmed in as CC messages....bowing, lipping, dynamics, breath etc etc etc and these have to be applied to get realistic sounding passages. There is a great book that has been in print for a long time now, that I got, called The Guide To MIDI Orchestration by Paul Gilreath.http://www.amazon.com/Guide-MIDI-Orchestration-4e/dp/tags-on-product/0240814134 Bottom line...you don't just enter some dots and get a pro sounding score. Another deal is the size of these libraries and what sequencer you are using etc the massive hit on your CPU. Many pro composers end up getting two or more computers in order to run huge "orchestras" At the least consider a slave computer to hold all the samples. With a product like Vienna Ensemble Pro, you can open your orchestral library in the slave and have it connected via LAN to the host computer with the DAW software, thereby taking all the strain off the host. So VEPro has a "mixer" that opens with all your instruments in it and in your DAW you have the MIDI files. over the ethernet cable they communicate ...MIDI info get's over to the slave and the audio comes back the other way to the DAW. You can also run 64 bit in the slave while running a 32bit DAW. Kinda like opening the library in a Rewire app like Reason within the DAW session, be it Logic, Pro Tools, DP, Cubase etc etc. http://www.viennaensemblepro.com/#!features Vienna Ensemble Pro also comes with the free Epic Orchestra. http://www.viennaensemblepro.com/#!epic_orchestra Thanks for all that info! Wow. Seriously, I`m not really concerned with the sounds of these programs. I`m more concerned with printing out my scores and having them look professional. btw- the Vienna sounds awesome. EB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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