Members nat whilk II Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 Ok, so you consider yourself self-taught, at least in some areas, some aspects of your music, playing or performing. How do you go about teaching yourself? Methodically? Randomly? Sporadically? Constantly? First place you turn? Is "self-taught" maybe a bit of a misnomer? When you are self-teaching, how much are you actually just taking this and that from a bunch of other artists or teachers? Would "self-directed selections of multiple teachers" be a more accurate, albeit very inelegant, way to better describe how you learn? nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 whenever I have time, I compose or arrange something for the sole purpose to learn something new, something I never did before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 Ok, so you consider yourself self-taught, at least in some areas, some aspects of your music, playing or performing.How do you go about teaching yourself? Methodically? Randomly? Sporadically? Constantly? First place you turn?Is "self-taught" maybe a bit of a misnomer? When you are self-teaching, how much are you actually just taking this and that from a bunch of other artists or teachers? Would "self-directed selections of multiple teachers" be a more accurate, albeit very inelegant, way to better describe how you learn?nat whilk ii I took private piano lessons for three years (age 13-16) then when I reached Liszts Hungarian Rhapsadies, I came to the conclusion that this was as far as I wanted to go. I soon after got my first paying job making music in a Church in East NY. I had no experience on the organ but soon after, got keys to the local church and practiced whenever I could. One organ position led to another. This November is my 22 year anniversary since I started making $$$ and eventually a living as a musician. The best part of all of this is that I never took a lesson to play the organ. I am self taught and the way I did it was just constantly learning something. One day it just started to click. It took a good 8-10 years but now I can play the organ and sing, while conducting a choir at the same time. I`m not trying to impress you but I do want to emphasis that as difficult as it all seemed when I was first starting out, I always had an inward knowing that I could do it. We can learn just about anything if we have that inner knowing. I don`t want to call it drive or passion because I think you can be passionate and have drive towards doing something but never really master something. For example, I have also been playing guitar for the same amount of time and I suck so drive/passion only gets you so far because I probably have spent the same amount of time on both instruments. The organ/piano just comes a lot more naturally to me. I genuinely feel that we are all born with a special talent. If we discover that talent and nurture it, we will see remarkable results in a short amount of time. On a side note... a couple of weeks ago I was participating in a similar thread over at GS and this kid wrote that he can learn to do anything, that he could master any instrument, etc... its not in my nature to knock someones dreams but I made him aware that I know firsthand that certain things are easier than others and then there are other things that we will never quite grasp and its not because we didn`t put in the time or energy, its simply that we are all wired for specific things and yes, the brain can be rewired but to an extent. So "self-taught" for me really comes from the ability to assess where I am and what needs work. I feel very fortunate that I always knew what I wanted to do even when I was a little kid at 4 but I also gave up a lot of things by choice so self taught is really a dynamic and wide subject that requires: discipline, the ability to self assess, being sensitive to intuition (meaning that you trust your gut and work on what you feel needs work and also knowing who to turn to for advice). Honestly though, as much as the "self taught" label is impressive, I think a teacher is sometimes a nice option. I also think in my case, it would have been detrimental because by not having a teacher I had to come up with my own solutions and techniques. I don`t play the organ like you would traditionally hear it being played because I was never taught how, I simply played what I wanted it to sound like. Lastly, I`ll just add that I can see a day when I eventually get formal training just for the pure joy of it but for now, I continue to assess where I am and where I want to go and plan it, then take that first step. Thanks to the affordability of recording now, its a wonderful tool to have... record yourself and listen back, then adjust. Thats assessing yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 I think when you never took formal lessons, and developed to a very good musician, then sooner or later you have to catch up with teaching yourself what you miss, i.e. harmony, theory, composition, playing in all diatonics, playing melodies over any kind of chord progressions, articulations, practicing scales, rhythms, learning traditional and old stuff, and at least learn the basics how to notate music... all that and more can be done without any teacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 I think when you never took formal lessons, and developed to a very good musician, then sooner or later you have to catch up with teaching yourself what you miss, i.e. harmony, theory, composition, playing in all diatonics, playing melodies over any kind of chord progressions, articulations, practicing scales, rhythms, learning traditional and old stuff, and at least learn the basics how to notate music... all that and more can be done without any teacher I forgot to mention that I went to a Performing Arts HS here in NYC so music was a very big part of my education and then when I went to college, I continued with a Bachelors in Music so all the theory, analysis, counterpoint and such was further taught. I was self taught on the organ, meaning no one ever sat there with me and gave me any insights into what or how I played. It was simply learning to play the instrument with pedals on my own. But technically, I have lots of formal music education... away from the organ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 my relation to the academic trainig, going thru a musical education at a university or conservatory is, that real music starts when you have this basic training behind you, very good musician expand their abilities by them self at home with many hours of concentrated work, always pushing into new land, and in combination that they play live many days per month, that is what brings them forward there is also something I observed over the years, I always have the feeling that the most fabulous musicians I work together, are the ones who play live, made tours, play for audiences when ever they can, and when not on a stage work with a great discipline on themself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 my relation to the academic trainig, going thru a musical education at a university or conservatory is, that real music starts when you have this basic training behind you,very good musician expand their abilities by them self at home with many hours of concentrated work, always pushing into new land, and in combination that they play live many days per month, that is what brings them forwardthere is also something I observed over the years, I always have the felling that the most fabulous musicians I work together, are the ones who play live, made tours, play for audiences when ever they can, and when not on a stage work with a great discipline on themself You make a very interesting point when you mention playing live. Thinking about all the time I have spent with the organ and the guitar, the difference is that I play live when I`m on the organ but the guitar has been mostly alone. Does that equate into my lack of "mastery" over the guitar? Its an interesting rabbit hole... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 You make a very interesting point when you mention playing live. Thinking about all the time I have spent with the organ and the guitar, the difference is that I play live when I`m on the organ but the guitar has been mostly alone. Does that equate into my lack of "mastery" over the guitar? Its an interesting rabbit hole... no, don't think so, only observed that musicians who have opportunity and experience to play live a lot, just have some extra energy, can kick out something very musical, and I assume it has to do that they can "test" whatever they prepared for live on a real audience, something the musicians without this experience don't have, don't know how to explaon it, but believe it has something to do with playing for audiences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RockViolin Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 no, don't think so, only observed that musicians who have opportunity and experience to play live a lot, just have some extra energy, can kick out something very musical, and I assume it has to do that they can "test" whatever they prepared for live on a real audience, something the musicians without this experience don't have, don't know how to explaon it, but believe it has something to do with playing for audiences There aren't many do overs when you play for people. It either soars like a hawk, or pecks like a pigeon. If the latter, pretty soon the people don't come back, and right away, even before the people know, the confidence begins to fail. Because "YOU" know. Then the downward spiral. There has to be something inside, someone inside, that says THAT AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN. That immediacy, that resolve tends to carry over. You become a master, to the best of your abilty, real fast when you have to stand in front of an audience and there is no escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Raymar Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 There aren't many do overs when you play for people. It either soars like a hawk, or pecks like a pigeon. If the latter, pretty soon the people don't come back, and right away, even before the people know, the confidence begins to fail. Because "YOU" know. Then the downward spiral. There has to be something inside, someone inside, that says THAT AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN. That immediacy, that resolve tends to carry over. You become a master, to the best of your abilty, real fast when you have to stand in front of an audience and there is no escape. Wow, I remember when I was a teen I could play Mood for a Day pretty well until I played it for an audience. I totally freaked out, it was like an OBE watching myself klutz through it in horror! It really forces you to pay extra attention. Nothing like having your sequencer bring up the wrong patch that is totally unplayable, yeow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 There aren't many do overs when you play for people. It either soars like a hawk, or pecks like a pigeon. If the latter, pretty soon the people don't come back, and right away, even before the people know, the confidence begins to fail. Because "YOU" know. Then the downward spiral. There has to be something inside, someone inside, that says THAT AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN. That immediacy, that resolve tends to carry over. You become a master, to the best of your abilty, real fast when you have to stand in front of an audience and there is no escape. btw, that album we discussed, I had to postphone to spring 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RockViolin Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 btw, that album we discussed, I had to postphone to spring 2012 As I thought. This hawk can still fly-just not all day, anymore. Please tell roomjello I'm not your maggot though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RockViolin Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 Wow, I remember when I was a teen I could play Mood for a Day pretty well until I played it for an audience. I totally freaked out, it was like an OBE watching myself klutz through it in horror! It really forces you to pay extra attention.Nothing like having your sequencer bring up the wrong patch that is totally unplayable, yeow! I had to walk the plank many, many times before it became just another diving board. Drowned and brought myself back to life over, and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 As I thought. This hawk can still fly-just not all day, anymore. Please tell roomjello I'm not your maggot though! Didn't knew that there is a maggot called roomjello. I bow down before the maggot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted November 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 30, 2011 How do you go about teaching yourself? I'm constantly searching out info and cross referencing what I find. With regards to theory. Let's say I was writing and wanted some fresh perspectives on leading tones. I might check the Wiki, then a few books I've got, contrast and compare info until I get it. Then I apply it. Much like Angelo said above. Let's say it was technique. I was getting back into singing so I could perform my songwriting demos. So I got a vocal warm up CD. And i got a classic on the subject, the 100 years old text, How To Sing. Then I got some variation of Singing For Dummies. The thing is, the same info will be in each of these sources. Said differently. And looking at something and applying via the warm up CD, I find I'm learning. Learning without a teacher = Self Teaching? I guess. That's how I do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mark L Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 I tend to rely on ignorance It seems to work for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted November 30, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 Interesting posts. About the effect of playing live - I find it the only way to develop the kind of confidence that is resilient and tough enough to get me through the down times when all my music sounds like junk to me. Not that the audience has to actually respond with unanimous approval to pump up my self-confidence (just one or two appreciative souls is usually enough.) But there's this confidence that just comes from putting a stake into the ground and being willing to play the game win or lose. Most of my self-teaching is simply adding this and that new thing to an ever-growing bag of tricks. An example is when, years and years ago, I was noodling around with Stevie Wonder's Sunshine Of My Life when I realized his little melodic lead-in on the electric piano was a whole-tone scale. So simple, but at least in my experience, unusual. So I took that little trick and started seeing how I could substitute whole tone scales and/or groupings for the dominant 7th. Then that led to a bunch of other ideas and for a while I thought of whole tone groupings as a foggy railyard where you go in from one direction and exit back out heading in almost any other direction. Till that little idea morphed again in its turn and I was on to gathering other bits for the ol' bag. As A.E. mentioned, the self-teaching method can lead to a very uneven skill set. And an uneven skill set tends to make you play it safe, stay within your bounds. Some people find enough to do within a sort of personalized, limited, maybe even frozen skill set - like a cartoonist who has just enough drawing skill to pull off innumerable individual strips - which is fine if the end product is interesting. But you have to develop a skill set that matches your ideas, that enables you to express what you need/want to express. If you never get a skill set at least reasonably close to that level, you are in for eternal frustration. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 I tend to rely on ignorance me usually too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Raymar Posted November 30, 2011 Members Share Posted November 30, 2011 Interesting posts. As A.E. mentioned, the self-teaching method can lead to a very uneven skill set. And an uneven skill set tends to make you play it safe, stay within your bounds. Some people find enough to do within a sort of personalized, limited, maybe even frozen skill set - like a cartoonist who has just enough drawing skill to pull off innumerable individual strips - which is fine if the end product is interesting. nat whilk ii The Ramones had a very limited skill set and made an entire career from it and also started a rock revolution which I still find pretty amazing even though I also like more complex music in a few genres, and also simpler music like ambient that is more about the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 1, 2011 Members Share Posted December 1, 2011 The Ramones had a very limited skill set and made an entire career from it and also started a rock revolution which I still find pretty amazing even though I also like more complex music in a few genres, and also simpler music like ambient that is more about the sound. The furniture of IKEA also looks all the same to me, and IKEA owner Ingvar Kamprad made an entire career from it and is the wealthiest Swiss today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 1, 2011 Members Share Posted December 1, 2011 I think when you never took formal lessons, and developed to a very good musician, then sooner or later you have to catch up with teaching yourself what you miss, i.e. harmony, theory, composition, playing in all diatonics, playing melodies over any kind of chord progressions, articulations, practicing scales, rhythms, learning traditional and old stuff, and at least learn the basics how to notate music... all that and more can be done without any teacher I really agree with this. I started off with classical guitar lessons, but one day the teacher got mad when I decided to learn about chords on my own. So I stopped taking lessons, got books like the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar Method (a killer book), and did things like try to figure out all the chord progressions for an album - yes, at one point I learned all of Sgt. Pepper's but figuring out what Wes Montgomery played was cool, too. I ended up developing my own style, and then went back and started filling in the gaps in my knowledge. I'm no theory giant, but I do well enough...the only thing I've really lost over the years is I used to read music well, and it's atrophied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted December 1, 2011 Members Share Posted December 1, 2011 I tend to rely on ignorance It seems to work for me Anytime I get to thinking I know something about guitar or keyboards I simply pick up a Guitar World or Keyboard magazine off the pile, look at the lessons and realize I don't know {censored}! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted December 1, 2011 Members Share Posted December 1, 2011 Oh man... where to start? A self-taught person like myself could write a book on this... no simple answer to your question. However, I have made a few observations over my lifetime that could shed some light on what we call, "Self-taught." First you need some natural ability that you cultivate through various means. You kind of just know things by looking at them and they are usually related, like electronics, music and math for example. I have two college degrees that have nothing to do with music or electronics, so even though on record I have formal education I still consider myself self-taught in most practical areas. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members A. Einstein Posted December 1, 2011 Members Share Posted December 1, 2011 My cat composes fabulous music when she walks the keys of the piano. But she is arrogant, she only want to tell me: "Hey asshole, that's music!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted December 1, 2011 Members Share Posted December 1, 2011 For me, self teaching is inspired by a seemingly endless desire to have more control and therefore more freedom in the music I make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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