Members oldgitplayer Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 I know that we generally discuss songwriting methods in a systematic and mainly pragmatic manner, but there's an old interview with Leonard Cohen that gets behind the mental and emotional scenes in a way with which I identify quite strongly. We all have our own kind of tollgate. Paul Zollo is the interviewer and asking about the line, 'There's a crack in everything'. LC : When I say that I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 That's from Songwriters On Songwriting? I remember enjoying his Leonard Cohen piece. Actually, IIRC most of the interviews there were pretty enlightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted March 10, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 That's from Songwriters On Songwriting? I remember enjoying his Leonard Cohen piece. Actually, IIRC most of the interviews there were pretty enlightening. Yep - that's the book. And a very good read for anyone who hasn't.Also doubles as an excellent doorstop when the need arises - it covers interviews with a lot of songwriters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 Also doubles as an excellent doorstop when the need arises I just checked and it is the thickest book down here in the music room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dannysigma Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 That book is one of my most treasured possessions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 10, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 10, 2012 PZ : How much does it cost? LC : [Pause] It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted March 10, 2012 Members Share Posted March 10, 2012 It's learning to try without trying. My man Johnny Mercer likened it to a snark hunt. LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted March 11, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 11, 2012 "We want you in a condition that you are not accustomed to. And that you yourself cannot name. We want you in a condition of receptivity that you cannot produce by yourself." I have been involved in other creative pursuits over the years, and I've learned from experience, that for pure creativity, we need to be open to that other place, and that at best, we can set up the parameters and conditions that might allow things to happen, but we can't make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted March 11, 2012 Members Share Posted March 11, 2012 I have the book containing that interview. What struck me was Cohen's descripion of his process. Most writers will write two verses they think are good enough and stop. He'll write about 30 and keep the ones that he feels are the absolute best he can do. This process can take months, years, decades. He also mentioned that it used to come much easier for him when he was younger, but that he now had to work harder for it...but still refuses to accept anything less than the best he is capable of. It's a testament to the power of patience, and the luxury of allowing ideas enough time to grow and develop. I don't believe this approach is for everybody...there's such a thing as being too precious about everything, at the expense of getting the damn song done. Prior to his career as a songwriter, he was a novelist, so he's definitely coming to it from that perspective. I don't claim to be a major Leonard Cohen fan, but it's hard to argue with an artist who created as legendary a body of work as he has. As for the "mystery" of songwriting...I'm not sure the process is any more mysterious than anything else requiring thought....the difference with songwriting is that the results get put on full display when it's done. It's more a reflection of the thought process itself...how our mind makes associations between things. It often happens so quickly that we don't always realize how it happens, but we do it every day. Just not everyone writes it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted March 11, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 11, 2012 Just not everyone writes it down. But this thread is not so much about process, but about the mystery of how unthought excellence shows up unbidden from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 But this thread is not so much about process, but about the mystery of how unthought excellence shows up unbidden from time to time. Well, I don't know if there can ever be an absence of process, it's just that we aren't always fully aware or in control of it. It's like what happens when we dream. It's a process, but a subconcious one. My point was that this "process"--for lack of a better word-- isn't just limited to songwriting, but everything we think and do. Songwriting and poetry just happen to be some of the more visible evidence of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted March 12, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 I agree that there is always a process at work - I'm just agreeing with Leonard Cohen that the best stuff comes from somewhere that is not under our control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Monkey Uncle Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 I have been involved in other creative pursuits over the years, and I've learned from experience, that for pure creativity, we need to be open to that other place, and that at best, we can set up the parameters and conditions that might allow things to happen, but we can't make it happen. I've often heard creative people say similar things about a variety of pursuits. I don't think I've ever found that place. I've heard people speak of a state of relaxed concentration. Relax and concentrate at the same time? Does not compute. What little bit I've been able to accomplish in music and songwriting has happened just by working at it. I'm not saying you're wrong; on the contrary, I think you're exactly right. If I could find that place, I suspect the small amount that I've accomplished would be quite a bit bigger. I just haven't figured out how to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted March 12, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 I've often heard creative people say similar things about a variety of pursuits. I don't think I've ever found that place. I've heard people speak of a state of relaxed concentration. Relax and concentrate at the same time? Does not compute. What little bit I've been able to accomplish in music and songwriting has happened just by working at it. I'm not saying you're wrong; on the contrary, I think you're exactly right. If I could find that place, I suspect the small amount that I've accomplished would be quite a bit bigger. I just haven't figured out how to get there. Replace the word 'concentration' with 'focus' and see if it makes any more sense to you. Relaxed focus is common when falling asleep or waking up. Throughout history, there has been a fascination with the phenomenon of hypnagogia. Writers and artists and inventors have learned how to harness those lucid, creative moments that occur at the time of falling asleep or waking. I think it was Thomas Edison who used to have 2 metal trays on the floor each side of his armchair, and he would fall asleep with a metal ball in each hand. As his hands relaxed, the balls would drop into the metal trays waking him instantly. He was then able to remember what was going through his mind, and often it was the solution to scientific problems or inventions that he was working on.It's a fascinating field. Wiki has an entry on it. Similarly, if we can set up any parameters that help in harnessing our sub-conscious mind, we can tap into a resource that may provide useful material in songwriting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 I came across this study on the recurring rhythmic patterns in classical music and thought it might be relevant to this discussion. Maybe it's a whole 'nother discussion? http://mindblog.dericbownds.net/2012/03/recurring-patterns-in-music-from-bach.html LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 Replace the word 'concentration' with 'focus' and see if it makes any more sense to you. Relaxed focus is common when falling asleep or waking up.Throughout history, there has been a fascination with the phenomenon of hypnagogia. Writers and artists and inventors have learned how to harness those lucid, creative moments that occur at the time of falling asleep or waking.I think it was Thomas Edison who used to have 2 metal trays on the floor each side of his armchair, and he would fall asleep with a metal ball in each hand. As his hands relaxed, the balls would drop into the metal trays waking him instantly. He was then able to remember what was going through his mind, and often it was the solution to scientific problems or inventions that he was working on.It's a fascinating field. Wiki has an entry on it.Similarly, if we can set up any parameters that help in harnessing our sub-conscious mind, we can tap into a resource that may provide useful material in songwriting. I've written numerous songs that appeared to me in quasi-sleep moments. Sometimes it is a melody, or a 2 second snippet. Other times it is an entire song that I wake up and already know how to play. Hasn't happened in a while, but those are a real treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 But this thread is not so much about process, but about the mystery of how unthought excellence shows up unbidden from time to time. I'm not sure how it happens. I don't think I've ever written anything that excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 12, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 12, 2012 I came across this study on the recurring rhythmic patterns in classical music and thought it might be relevant to this discussion.Maybe it's a whole 'nother discussion?http://mindblog.dericbownds.net/2012/03/recurring-patterns-in-music-from-bach.htmlLCK "Furthermore, composers systematically manipulate (consciously or otherwise) the predictability in 1/f rhythms to give their compositions unique identities." Cool article and something I've been looking into for some time. Can you explain what he means by 1/f power law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 "That Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 I've often heard creative people say similar things about a variety of pursuits. I don't think I've ever found that place. I've heard people speak of a state of relaxed concentration. Relax and concentrate at the same time? Does not compute. What little bit I've been able to accomplish in music and songwriting has happened just by working at it. I'm not saying you're wrong; on the contrary, I think you're exactly right. If I could find that place, I suspect the small amount that I've accomplished would be quite a bit bigger. I just haven't figured out how to get there. Who is to say what your process should be? But... I do know those two modes. For me, the (let's call it) inspired mode is where ideas dance and intermingle; I can feel the shifting shadows in my subconscious, but I hold a sort of attentive emptiness in my forebrain. But the work mode, for me, is very different. It's where I take the ideas that haven't yet shaken down into a good fit and refine and polish and work them together. For me, each is pretty necessary -- although the balance varies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LeonardScaper Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 .....the mystery of how unthought excellence shows up unbidden from time to time. If there's anything I have learned from hanging around here it is that while the best material may come unbidden........the best product comes from recognizing that material and working hard to carefully craft it into something that presents that mystery in a polished and well produced package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 If there's anything I have learned from hanging around here it is that while the best material may come unbidden........the best product comes from recognizing that material and working hard to carefully craft it into something that presents that mystery in a polished and well produced package. That might be the wisest thing I've ever seen someone say on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted March 12, 2012 Members Share Posted March 12, 2012 That might be the wisest thing I've ever seen someone say on the board. LeonardScaper is a smart guy. and +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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