Members Bryan316 Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Stripping my MTD Kingston ZX down and cleaning everything. Noticed the zero fret has deep notches in it where the strings contact. It has a plastic nut above it to retain lateral spacing, so why does this nut need grooves? I suspect it's serious wear and tear, not intended notches. If these aren't supposed to be there, then that fret's gotta come out. It's far deeper than a redressing would fix. And all this black chrome is nice, until you clean it. What I thought were the usual boogers and spots and debris from guitar cases, turned out to be permanent spots in the blacking over the chrome. TOTAL CRAP. Not happy one bit. Got a terrible buzz at the 7th fret of the G string. So that's gonna need a whole leveling and recrowning and redressing. Don't even think it's worth putting new strings onto it if I gotta get the fretwork redone. So is this zero fret normal? Or do I have a lot of work ahead of me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted November 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted November 10, 2008 A zero fret should be leveled and crowned with and like the rest of the frets, there is nothing unique about it. I would be surprised if it is too deep for a leveling to correct, but if it is, replace it and level the remaining frets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bryan316 Posted November 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 DAMNIT Then that pretty much puts this bass back on the store's wall. I'm really REALLY not interested in getting a fret replaced, then getting that harmonic 7th fret fixed, and figuring out why this EQ is so destructive, rather than helpful, to my tone. Tweak anything, and it overblows the preamp. Plus, it's a longer scale than I'm used to, it's a wiiiider string spacing than I'm used to, and for the money, I'd rather get a Tobias Killer B like I originally intended. At least it's clean, now. I'll take it back and save up for that Killer B at Huber and Breese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 DAMNIT Then that pretty much puts this bass back on the store's wall. I'm really REALLY not interested in getting a fret replaced, then getting that harmonic 7th fret fixed, and figuring out why this EQ is so destructive, rather than helpful, to my tone. Tweak anything, and it overblows the preamp. Plus, it's a longer scale than I'm used to, it's a wiiiider string spacing than I'm used to, and for the money, I'd rather get a Tobias Killer B like I originally intended. At least it's clean, now. I'll take it back and save up for that Killer B at Huber and Breese. So why did you buy it in the first place, worn zero-fret aside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SmallEQ Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 A zero fret should be leveled and crowned with and like the rest of the frets, there is nothing unique about it. I would be surprised if it is too deep for a leveling to correct, but if it is, replace it and level the remaining frets. Actually, there are a couple of companies that do indeed notch the Zero fret. For instance Sandberg does this for all of their basses. My Friend bought a bought a Sandberg and noticed the same thing, so he wrote to Sandberg: I just became the proud owner of a California JM 5 string, and now I have one question. In the Bass Player article that is found on your web page, the reviewer complains about the grooves "worn" into the zero fret, saying it could be a potential problem if you change strings often. But my guess is you actually slot the zero fret on purpose, since it's not the same size as the normal frets. If that zero fret wasn't slotted, I'd have action from hell on my bass, but it plays like butter:) So would you please tell me about your idea behind the slotted zero fret, just to ease my mind? And the response: Hi magnus! You are absolutely right, i could not explain it better. The guy from the magazine is wrong there. Chris slots the zero fret carefully in order to get the best possible action! The zero fret is higher than the others. So everything is fine. It is an extremely hard material so even changing the strings daily will not affect the zero fret! And a pic of Sandberg's work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted November 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted November 10, 2008 Actually, there are a couple of companies that do indeed notch the Zero fret. Ick! In any case, it must be level with the other frets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bryan316 Posted November 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Nope. Mine don't look clean like those. They're scratched and sharp and ragged. Not smooth at all. I've seen plastic/graphite nuts that show the strings' winding impressions in it. And the zero fret has that as well. So why did you buy it in the first place, worn zero-fret aside? Great looking bass, 5 strings, Bartolinis, used = good price, good playing feel, a change from my old Ibanez 5-stringers. I want that Bartolini bite when I really dig in. But it's not an easy beast to tame, for my style of playing. I just don't want to admit it. Not yet, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bleepo Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Contact Mike Tobias about a refin? I'm sure he'd rather fix a problem bass than have people talking smack of his fit and finish. He setup the ZX basses himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rpsands Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Back in the old days we all had notched zero frets on our basses. But we called them nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bryan316 Posted November 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 I'm not complaining about the quality of his product. I'm complaining about the abuse the previous owner put this thing through. To me, I'd be baby-ing a bass this nice. Just another reason to advocate stainless steel frets. Heh heh. Here's the thing. I KNEW, from the start, that this bass was a larger scale and wider spacing than I'm used to. But it felt GREAT on this bass, as opposed to a few MTD 535's and some Pedullas and a Modulus, and a few others around town. I didn't know what struck me more, the look or the comfort. So I went with the gamble. But after doing a fret job and obviously a full set-up after that, I'd be at a $1600 bass. Why don't I just go after the Tobias Killer B 5 that I've been jonesing for over 2 years, at $1800-1900? It'll have the narrower string spacing, the 34" scale, and the really aggressive asymmetrical neck that I originally drooled over. At this point, I'd rather save up a bit more, and buy EXACTLY what I want, instead of forcing myself to like something that isn't really perfect for me. At least it's clean as a whistle now. I'll just get the refund, and tell em to order up a Killer B around Christmas time. Unless someone around Detroit wants to see this before I give it back to the store... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 10, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 Ick!In any case, it must be level with the other frets. A notched zero fret should not be levelto the others...at least the *top* of the ZF should not. It's carefully grooved to adjust the action to the desired height. As noted, the material is harder than the rest of the frets, and the notching is desirable from a wear standpoint...instead of sliding on the ZF and wearing a wide shallow spot, the string is a bit more captive in the notch, and wears it less. Done right, 'tis a wonderful way to do a bass neck:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bryan316 Posted November 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Hmm. I'll go examine it one more time. I'll take home my feeler gauges from work tonight and see if the spacing at the 1st fret is consistent. If so, then the zero fret is correct, and WAS notched to fine-tune the exact action. But just from looking at the notches, they look far too ugly to be proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 10, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 From your other complaints, it really doesn't seem this bass is your cup of tea, zero-fret okay or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bryan316 Posted November 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Naw. After letting it absorb overnight, it really isn't. I WANTED IT TO! TRUST ME! This thing was an adventure, for sure. But it makes me 80% happy. After the work, it would make me 90% happy. I want 100% happy. I want no regrets on dropping 5 times what I paid for my current main bass! It's that simple. If I'm investing this heavily, it better be exactly what I want, head to toe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GreaserMatt Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 My Wilson Bros. VMB 100 has this I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted November 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted November 10, 2008 A notched zero fret should not be levelto the others...at least the *top* of the ZF should not. The string contact point needs to be leveled with the other frets. It also needs to be crowned in order to intonate correctly (unless the zero fret is driven in at a compensating angle). On the only xample shown, the Sandburg, it isn't. It is unforgivably sloppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcrow Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Ick!In any case, it must be level with the other frets. check!!i had a zero fret fitted and no grooves...through time it did get a bit pressed downi think sandberg set them high and then compensate for the height by groovingthis of course will locate the strings so a nut seems redundant once in a competition for bass design i did put forward a frut..fretted nuta composite construction item made up of a metal fret and a ivory or whatever nut..i do now understand these exist anyway the ideal of a zero fret is to give an unconstrained witness point to the string at the headstock and afford better resonance and sustain as the fret is right into the board and not tacked on the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bryan316 Posted November 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 From my understanding, the zero fret shouldn't need any notching, if it were dressed and planed to the other frets at the same time. It seems to me redundant, or counter-intuitive, to notch the zero fret. That zero fret assures your strings are at the correct height above the strings at the headstock, and your bridge saddles account for action in the higher registers. I need a better understanding of why a zero fret needs to be notched. Cuz as long as that zero fret is in the same (curved) plane as the rest of the frets, it should be peachy keen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcrow Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 a zero fret on its own may need some guiding principle to align the string and stop jump out on an E or B hard fret on fret 1 and bending so a nut it mandatory as well here we go!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bryan316 Posted November 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Which is why the plastic nut sits behind the zero fret, for lateral alignment only. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcrow Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Which is why the plastic nut sits behind the zero fret, for lateral alignment only. Right? yes...the nut for me is quite an inaccurate way to set up string height unless its adjustable...so a fret does just thatthe sideways force on the string as you bend it needs to be restrained...the groove in the nut will do this..the string neednt actually touch the bottom of the nut groove if there is a zero fret..or the sides really...the string can move a little bit..just so long as it doesnt fall off the neck...or jump out of the nut groove E and G on a 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bryan316 Posted November 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 Right. Snug side to side, not touching the underside so all the downward pressure is applied to the fretwire. So, I get the design. I understand mechanically how it works. And to my logical beer-swilling investigation last night, that zero fret looks PROPER {censored}ed. Maybe I'll unstring it again and shoot a pic or two tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcrow Posted November 10, 2008 Members Share Posted November 10, 2008 till tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 10, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 The string contact point needs to be leveled with the other frets. Hence why I followed your quoted sentence with, "It's carefully grooved to adjust the action to the desired height." The bottom of the notch sets the string height. The side of the fret facing the other frets much be vertical in order for the intonation to be correct. There are not a lot of instruments that use this method, since it's fussy and unforgiving. I've only personally seen two, many years ago, and both were custom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 10, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 the ideal of a zero fret is to give an unconstrained witness point to the string at the headstock and afford better resonance and sustain as the fret is right into the board and not tacked on the end The big advantage is that open-string notes sound the same as fretted, since they are fretted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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