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BI-AMPING


stringbreaker22

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I am considering setting up a bi-amp bass rig. I'm not sure how to go about it properly. First question: Can I power a bi-amp rig using a stereo power amp, such as a CROWN head or do I have to use two seperate heads? Also, as far as signal chain, Do I go bass to crossover to power head(s) to cabinets? An y help would be appreciated. :confused:

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To biamp you need an input signal, a crossover, two amps and two cabinets. A stereo power amp works perfectly for the two amps, except in most biamping configurations you will need significantly more power for the lows than the highs. As a result, any power amp that is big enough for the lows is too big for the highs and you will be carrying extra unused power. However, since power is cheap, it is still probably the best to use a stereo power amp rather than two more specifically tailored amps.

 

As for the signal chain it should go instrument to preamp to crossover to power amp to cabinets. If you put the preamp stage after the crossover, you'll need two preamps. You may also find a preamp that includes an integrated crossover.

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Rethink it. Biamping mostly sucks. There's two good ways I've experienced:

 

1) One channel full range, one channel high passed with effects

2) One channel full range, one channel low passed into a cabinet that puts out monstrous low end (e.g. a solo kappa 3015LF or similar subwoofer).

 

Splitting your signal almost always will wind you up with a frequency hole and also waste your volume (since most bass cabs are close enough to full range to benefit from just getting a full range signal).

 

If you get a good stereo power amp with a sweepable low pass filter like say, a Yamaha P5000/P7500, you can do this without even needing a crossover. Just turn the low pass or high pass on one channel way up.

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I'm running the Bass into a Yamaha BBT 500 Amp, full range into a 8x10 and a 4x10 and grabbing the signal from the Yamaha to run into a Hartke H3500 with highs and mids all pulled down, and the lows boosted, into a 2x18.

The Hartke Volume is at 2, rounding off my sound, all effects bypass it, going to my full range sound only.

Bear in mind though, that setup is practice room only, all I take along to live gigs, is a 4x10 and the Yamaha for stage sound. The audience listens to my V-Bass via PA, and on that the sound is tweaked to what sounds good in whatever venue we play.

I don't lug all those speakers around any more. I've grown up.;) (translate to: I've finally got the money to afford the gear that makes it possible to leave the big guns at home).

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What about old school biamping? Splitting the signal and sending one to a bass amp / cab, and the other to a guitar amp / cab, a la Chris Squire?

This, IMO, is about the only time that bi-amping is worth the effort. Getting that solid low end and those grinding highs is awesome :).

All the cats that do this have tone that I enjoy listening to.

To the OP; what is the reason you're looking to Bi-amp?

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What about old school biamping? Splitting the signal and sending one to a bass amp / cab, and the other to a guitar amp / cab, a la Chris Squire?

 

 

Coming from an "old school" bassist, bi-amping had a definite purpose in the 80's that is simply not around anymore. Much better bass speakers and much better bass amps (compared to those in the 80's) are available today. I used to bi-amp a 1x15 and 4x10, but the 4x10's today can certainly handle the lower frequencies much better than cabs thirty years ago. The main reason we bi-amped back then was to get more clean volume, and that is not much of a problem nowadays.

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This, IMO, is about the only time that bi-amping is worth the effort. Getting that solid low end and those grinding highs is awesome
:)
.

All the cats that do this have tone that I enjoy listening to.

To the OP; what is the reason you're looking to Bi-amp?

 

Thanks for the info guys. You all are truly knowledgeable. Ray, I am considering bi-amping because I am involved in a three piece hard rock cover band and would like to add effect, such as distortion/overdrive, chorus, etc. to fill things up, when required. I have read that it is best to run effects, through the high end only, so as to retain a clean bottom end as a foundation. My current rig is Sansamp RBI into a GK 800RB (which has a built in crossover) into a Hartke 4x10 (for the highs) and a Hartke 1x15 (ffor the lows). It's a good setup, but I would like to run chorus and overdrive on JUST the highs, and I don't think I can do that with this setup. I have considered buying a small combo GUITAR amp and running the uneffected signal out of the Preamp into that with the overdrive on that, but it may not be worth all that trouble. Any suggestions?:)

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Proper Eq settings and a well designed cross over system eliminate this problem as long as you BiAmp ahead of your power stage. I have no FQ response holes in my BiAmp rig.

 

 

Rethink it. Biamping mostly sucks. There's two good ways I've experienced:


1) One channel full range, one channel high passed with effects

2) One channel full range, one channel low passed into a cabinet that puts out monstrous low end (e.g. a solo kappa 3015LF or similar subwoofer).


Splitting your signal almost always will wind you up with a frequency hole and also waste your volume (since most bass cabs are close enough to full range to benefit from just getting a full range signal).

If you get a good stereo power amp with a sweepable low pass filter like say, a Yamaha P5000/P7500, you can do this without even needing a crossover. Just turn the low pass or high pass on one channel way up.

 

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Proper Eq settings and a well designed cross over system eliminate this problem as long as you BiAmp ahead of your power stage. I have no FQ response holes in my BiAmp rig.

 

 

Most people will just not get this right. It takes a LOT of effort to configure a biamp that is superior in sound to a standard 3-way cabinet with a well-designed passive crossover (or a 2-way cab with a nice midrange instead of a horn).

 

The EQ will differ per amp/preamp/crossover, and I would expect to have lots more issues any time you want to EQ to a room too.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying 90% of the time you'd be better off with both cabs full range unless you are a biamp rig expert. Even then, I would bet you couldn't tell the difference most of the time. And it would probably sound better with at least one bass cab full range.

 

In the classic guitar cab/bass cab setup, even, you will almost certainly like it better if you run the bass cab full range un-effected and the guitar cab high passed with effects.

 

Mileage may vary - I know a few really knowledgeable dudes who biamp (Greenboy from TB is a good example) so it's obviously not worthless. It's just more trouble than it's worth for most people.

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I am considering setting up a bi-amp bass rig. I'm not sure how to go about it properly. First question: Can I power a bi-amp rig using a stereo power amp, such as a CROWN head or do I have to use two seperate heads? Also, as far as signal chain, Do I go bass to crossover to power head(s) to cabinets? An y help would be appreciated.
:confused:

If you've already got a stereo power amp your best bet IMO is to get 2 different preamps - one for highs and one for lows.

 

Yes, you can use each side of the stereo power amp...

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I use a randall head. rb2000 old stuff. I have never had to ReEq for a room ever. Occasionaly I will reposition cabinets to kill potential room boom but never have a I needed to adjust for a room.

 

My rig sounds killer. Most guys want my rig so I must be doing something right.

 

 

 

Most people will just not get this right. It takes a LOT of effort to configure a biamp that is superior in sound to a standard 3-way cabinet with a well-designed passive crossover (or a 2-way cab with a nice midrange instead of a horn).


The EQ will differ per amp/preamp/crossover, and I would expect to have lots more issues any time you want to EQ to a room too.


I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying 90% of the time you'd be better off with both cabs full range unless you are a biamp rig expert. Even then, I would bet you couldn't tell the difference most of the time. And it would probably sound better with at least one bass cab full range.


In the classic guitar cab/bass cab setup, even, you will almost certainly like it better if you run the bass cab full range un-effected and the guitar cab high passed with effects.


Mileage may vary - I know a few really knowledgeable dudes who biamp (Greenboy from TB is a good example) so it's obviously not worthless. It's just more trouble than it's worth for most people.

 

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Maybe you are the man. Most people will not, with a cheaply available crossover and a stereo PA power amp, get a sound they are happy with splitting the signal vs. full range.

 

The fact that it works for you is great. Maybe you could post your crossover frequencies, what cabs you use and so forth.

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randall rb2000 head. Crossover is internal but set at 300hz or so. EQ is really very flat with a touch of boost in the lows.

 

Use GLX "Goldline" cabs from GK 1 4x10 and 2 1x15's. Its pretty basic but sounds killer.

 

Nothing fancy. I think alot of the sucess of my setup is the head itself. Very clear very transparent and the cros over is well designed.

 

 

 

Maybe you are the man. Most people will not, with a cheaply available crossover and a stereo PA power amp, get a sound they are happy with splitting the signal vs. full range.


The fact that it works for you is great. Maybe you could post your crossover frequencies, what cabs you use and so forth.

 

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To biamp you need an input signal, a crossover, two amps and two cabinets. A stereo power amp works perfectly for the two amps, except in most biamping configurations you will need significantly more power for the lows than the highs. As a result, any power amp that is big enough for the lows is too big for the highs and you will be carrying extra unused power. However, since power is cheap, it is still probably the best to use a stereo power amp rather than two more specifically tailored amps.


As for the signal chain it should go instrument to preamp to crossover to power amp to cabinets. If you put the preamp stage after the crossover, you'll need two preamps. You may also find a preamp that includes an integrated crossover.

 

 

The Peavey PV1600 Bi-Pack is a good solution to the power amp issue. 930w @ 4 ohms, and 350w @ 4 ohms (210w @ 8 ohms) with a 24db/octave crossover @ 1.5kHz.

 

However, IMO biamping only makes sense if you're crossing at around 100Hz and utilizing a subwoofer and a mid-high. Or you could tri-amp...:lol:

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The Peavey PV1600 Bi-Pack is a good solution to the power amp issue. 930w @ 4 ohms, and 350w @ 4 ohms (210w @ 8 ohms) with a 24db/octave crossover @ 1.5kHz.


However, IMO biamping only makes sense if you're crossing at around 100Hz and utilizing a subwoofer and a mid-high. Or you could tri-amp...
:lol:

 

#1 - What bass player needs 350 W above 1.5 kHz!!! :eek:

#2 - You are absolutely right about crossing between a sub 100 HZ cab and another above. Crossing over using two cabs designed for the same passband like above is nonsensical.

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#1 - What bass player needs 350 W above 1.5 kHz!!!
:eek:
#2 - You are absolutely right about crossing between a sub 100 HZ cab and another above. Crossing over using two cabs designed for the same passband like above is nonsensical.

 

Many compression horn drivers are 16 ohms or you can serial a pair of 8's so you can set up a sweet rig with about 150w (possibly much lower...there's no 16 ohm spec listed) into that impedance. But you're right...and that's why I generally see no value in what most people do for bi-amped bass rigs.

 

Yeah, the idea of using 2 identical cabs handling two different bands is a waste of time. Anyone doing that deserves a beatdown just on general principles...;)

 

There aren't a lot of low-power amps out there. I've had this problem with my PA rig...I'd love to tri-amp it but finding something for the HF end is frustrating. Mostly either overpriced 'audiophile' crap, or no-names that I don't want in my rack:lol:

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randall rb2000 head. Crossover is internal but set at 300hz or so. EQ is really very flat with a touch of boost in the lows.


Use GLX "Goldline" cabs from GK 1 4x10 and 2 1x15's. Its pretty basic but sounds killer.


Nothing fancy. I think alot of the sucess of my setup is the head itself. Very clear very transparent and the cros over is well designed.

 

I would bet money no one could tell the difference if you ran it full range :)

 

Like Kindness says, the GLX cabs are designed for the same or very similar frequency response. crossing over the 1x15 at 300hz is like turning off the horn and all of its output from 300-1000hz (which is going to be pretty noticeable) for no particular reason. Oh, and taking the 60-300hz output of the 4x10 (also pretty significant) out for no reason.

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I would bet money no one could tell the difference if you ran it full range
:)

Like Kindness says, the GLX cabs are designed for the same or very similar frequency response. crossing over the 1x15 at 300hz is like turning off the horn and all of its output from 300-1000hz (which is going to be pretty noticeable) for no particular reason. Oh, and taking the 60-300hz output of the 4x10 (also pretty significant) out for no reason.

I dunno man - it seems like all this technical jive can get in the way of the truth.

 

If he's happy with the sound, then that's all that should matter, right?

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I dunno man - it seems like all this technical jive can get in the way of the truth.


If he's happy with the sound, then that's all that should matter, right?

 

I think it's more important that he acknowledge that I am right. :cop:

 

Kidding aside, do what sounds good. But I seriously doubt you could tell the difference and it'd probably be much louder full range. Just because an amp has a crossover doesn't mean you gotta use it. I think what he likes is the sound of his bass head and those cabs, and the crossover is probably next to useless fluff.

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