The Singer's Forum

[baimun]

My biggest singing pet peeve is when a band fails to recognize the difference between the vocal instrument and the other instruments like guitars.

Example... Song that will sound better in the singer's "pocket" vocal range, but the musicians don't want to learn it in another key. It's a heck of alot easier to use a capo or a different fingering than it is for a vocalist to sing a song that's too low or on the top edge of their vocal range for an extended time.

Also, with respect for the pace of the show, it's a necessary evil to mix up the set list to allow "lighter" vocal songs after really tough songs.


Bandmates keeping an open mind about these things helps them in the long run because they're not replacing their singer after 6 months because they've worn out their voice.:cop:

[DjangoStiltskin]

Axl Rose.

[baimun]

Axl Rose.

Oh come on.







I said "singing".

[DjangoStiltskin]

Oh come on.







I said "singing".

:lol:

[baimun]

I shouldn't say that too loud or Ron won't ever talk to me again.

[Bajazz]

My biggest singing pet peeve is when a band fails to recognize the difference between the vocal instrument and the other instruments like guitars.

Example... Song that will sound better in the singer's "pocket" vocal range, but the musicians don't want to learn it in another key. It's a heck of alot easier to use a capo or a different fingering than it is for a vocalist to sing a song that's too low or on the top edge of their vocal range for an extended time.

What's wrong with working hard expanding your range. Your guitar player has spent thousands of hours practicing learing to play as fast as he need to be to be able to pull it off.

All singers can expand their range, there is no such thing as a pocket vocal range.

[BLACKWINGEDBEI…]

What's wrong with working hard expanding your range. Your guitar player has spent thousands of hours practicing learing to play as fast as he need to be to be able to pull it off.

All singers can expand their range, there is no such thing as a pocket vocal range.

None of us are superman dude. Besides that most of us don't make a living doing this and while some do I'd still be pressed to agrre that most can improve their range so that it can cover ALL the ground musically. Where's all the 7 octave singers? There are none.

[micwalt]

What's wrong with working hard expanding your range. Your guitar player has spent thousands of hours practicing learing to play as fast as he need to be to be able to pull it off.

All singers can expand their range, there is no such thing as a pocket vocal range.

One can expand one's vocal range but only to a point. Also, after a certain age, even that is nigh impossible.
In short, your comment was stupid.
:facepalm:

[baimun]

What's wrong with working hard expanding your range. Your guitar player has spent thousands of hours practicing learing to play as fast as he need to be to be able to pull it off.

All singers can expand their range, there is no such thing as a pocket vocal range.

Prediction:

At some point a singer will buy you a capo... and you'll look at it like "what's that for?"

[Frank Prince]

My biggest singing pet peeve is when a band fails to recognize the difference between the vocal instrument and the other instruments like guitars.

Example... Song that will sound better in the singer's "pocket" vocal range, but the musicians don't want to learn it in another key. It's a heck of alot easier to use a capo or a different fingering than it is for a vocalist to sing a song that's too low or on the top edge of their vocal range for an extended time.

Also, with respect for the pace of the show, it's a necessary evil to mix up the set list to allow "lighter" vocal songs after really tough songs.


Bandmates keeping an open mind about these things helps them in the long run because they're not replacing their singer after 6 months because they've worn out their voice.:cop:

Sorry if this sounds jerkish, but as a guitarist I have a pet peeve about singers wanting to sing songs outside the original key, and just expecting the players to follow along no matter what. For guitar-centric tunes, sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.

Sure, a guitar player can capo a tune in C up to C# with no problems, but if the singer wants to take it down to Bb and there are a lot of embellishments involving open C and G chords, it's a completely different story.

Also, God help the singer who insists on key changes and then gets impatient on stage when you are fumbling around with a capo and trying to tune your guitar, or tuning the whole thing down to Eb or D. :evil:

[baimun]

Sorry if this sounds jerkish, but as a guitarist I have a pet peeve about singers wanting to sing songs outside the original key, and just expecting the players to follow along no matter what. For guitar-centric tunes, sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't....

....Also, God help the singer who insists on key changes and then gets impatient on stage when you are fumbling around with a capo and trying to tune your guitar, or tuning the whole thing down to Eb or D. :evil:

You don't sound jerkish at all. Just being aware of all the bandmembers needs and preferences can be enough to come to amicable adjustments.

Changing keys live would piss me off too. Sometimes the muscle memory takes over and you end up sliding to where you're used to... and over thinking what key you're in kills the spontenaity.

I'm mostly referring to rehearsed key changes that make the entire group sound more in-the-pocket, both in lead and harmony vocals.

[SevenString]

7-strings, FTW. :lol:

Seriously, I'm mainly a singer, but as you can tell by my moniker, I'm also a guitar player, and if I'm accompanying someone else while they sing? I do everything to accomodate that singer, and I'll go as far as transposing on the fly if I have to.

So what if I make a couple of clams on the guitar? That's MUCH less of a distraction to the audience than if the singer sounds like crap through the entire song, in a key that's out of his or her range.

Just my opinion. Flame on...

[Rhythm Junky]

"Fake" vibrato like The Bee Gees and Kenny Rogers.

[flemtone]

1: Whitney-like vocal gymnastics/wanking.

2: Patty Smith.

[Bajazz]

One can expand one's vocal range but only to a point. Also, after a certain age, even that is nigh impossible.

Again, this is just another myth. Of course there is a limit to anything, but unless you are a man singing way in the soprano area you have a lot of potential.

When you start off bodybuilding being skinny and 60 kg you simply can't have the attitude that you'd might gain a couple of kg. Then you'll just be the one of many who confirm the myth that it's "impossible" to make a Hulk out of a wimp.

You need the spirit and attitude, go for it!!

If you don't believe me, buy Jaimie Venderas "Raise your voice", read it and work for it a while. Any man, bass or baritone can sing above a high powerful tenor C using the correct technique. Straining won't get you there. Correct practice will.

I know, cause I used to stran with a E (as in open thin e-string on guitar), now I sing AC/DC tunes. I will be 40 soon and keep singing higher and louder....

But most people want to believe what you said, cause it's so much more comfortable to not work hard....

[b_nehpets]

rememberizing lyrics. even for originals.

[Al Koehn]

What too many guitar, keyboard and bass players don't understand or refuse to accept is the fact that their instruments are always physically capable of producing all the notes unless they are broken or faulty. But no matter how many hours they practice they will not be able to play notes that are beyond the range of the instrument.

The range of the voice depends on the size of the vocal chords. Think of saxophones. The soprano sax (Kenny G) is is very small instrument, incapable of playing the low notes which can be played on an alto sax. But it easily produces much higher notes because of its small size. The tenor sax is bigger than the alto, and is capable of much lower notes, but has trouble going as high. And so on. The size of the instrument dictates how high and low it can play.

Small vocal cords (sopranos) are capable of producing higher notes than the next bigger size (altos), which are capable of producing higher sounds than tenor (male) cords, and so on. Unlike saxophones, vocal chords can often be taught to extend their high ranges, but this is limited, and when the singer strains to hit the high notes they damage their instrument (and sound bad) The low range is almost impossible to extend beyond the physical limits of the cords.

When we reach adulthood, like our noses or ears, our vocal cords settle into a specific size which dictates how high or low they can sing. This seldom changes during our lives. No matter how much the guitar player complains, a guy with bass-sized vocal cords will not be able to cover a Steve Perry song in the original key.

The argument that practicing will change the size of the vocal instrument is like saying that practicing will change the size and range of the guitar or bass. It won't work.

The keys of Steven Tyler's songs are carefully chosen to accommodate the size of his vocal cords. (His range) Unless your band has a singer with Steven Tyler-sized cords there are probably going to be several Aerosmith songs you will need to change the key on if you want your singer (and band) to sound good. The audience doesn't care what key you do a song in as long as it sounds good.

Like it or not, the lead singer is usually the defining factor in the personality of the band. Care must be taken to insure that he or she sounds the best they possibly can. If this means changing keys, and often does, that's what must be done.

[Gizzmo0815]

What too many guitar, keyboard and bass players don't understand or refuse to accept is the fact that their instruments are always physically capable of producing all the notes unless they are broken or faulty. But no matter how many hours they practice they will not be able to play notes that are beyond the range of the instrument.

The range of the voice depends on the size of the vocal chords. Think of saxophones. The soprano sax (Kenny G) is is very small instrument, incapable of playing the low notes which can be played on an alto sax. But it easily produces much higher notes because of its small size. The tenor sax is bigger than the alto, and is capable of much lower notes, but has trouble going as high. And so on. The size of the instrument dictates how high and low it can play.

Small vocal cords (sopranos) are capable of producing higher notes than the next bigger size (altos), which are capable of producing higher sounds than tenor (male) cords, and so on. Unlike saxophones, vocal chords can often be taught to extend their high ranges, but this is limited, and when the singer strains to hit the high notes they damage their instrument (and sound bad) The low range is almost impossible to extend beyond the physical limits of the cords.

When we reach adulthood, like our noses or ears, our vocal cords settle into a specific size which dictates how high or low they can sing. This seldom changes during our lives. No matter how much the guitar player complains, a guy with bass-sized vocal cords will not be able to cover a Steve Perry song in the original key.

The argument that practicing will change the size of the vocal instrument is like saying that practicing will change the size and range of the guitar or bass. It won't work.

The keys of Steven Tyler's songs are carefully chosen to accommodate the size of his vocal cords. (His range) Unless your band has a singer with Steven Tyler-sized cords there are probably going to be several Aerosmith songs you will need to change the key on if you want your singer (and band) to sound good. The audience doesn't care what key you do a song in as long as it sounds good.

Like it or not, the lead singer is usually the defining factor in the personality of the band. Care must be taken to insure that he or she sounds the best they possibly can. If this means changing keys, and often does, that's what must be done.

This

[flemtone]

There you go, being all kinds of common-sensical and everything...

Don't you know where you are?


Great post, Al.

[micwalt]

Again, this is just another myth. Of course there is a limit to anything, but unless you are a man singing way in the soprano area you have a lot of potential.

When you start off bodybuilding being skinny and 60 kg you simply can't have the attitude that you'd might gain a couple of kg. Then you'll just be the one of many who confirm the myth that it's "impossible" to make a Hulk out of a wimp.

You need the spirit and attitude, go for it!!

If you don't believe me, buy Jaimie Venderas "Raise your voice", read it and work for it a while. Any man, bass or baritone can sing above a high powerful tenor C using the correct technique. Straining won't get you there. Correct practice will.

I know, cause I used to stran with a E (as in open thin e-string on guitar), now I sing AC/DC tunes. I will be 40 soon and keep singing higher and louder....

But most people want to believe what you said, cause it's so much more comfortable to not work hard....

I personally have no problems--I have a very large range. I trained myself in my early 20's to be able to sing high, even though I'm naturally a baritone.
Not everyone can do it, though. There are limits.
And it's true that a skinny guy can't become a hulk too (w/o pharmaceutical help, that is). There is no way a true ectomorph will ever reach the size required to compete in a Mr. Olympian contest.
I think Al's post explains it pretty well.